New Entry on p3d main site.

[DChockey08 299]

Could be. Here’s one thing I’m afraid of: imagine a world where we have a much improved P3D (new engine, etc) that is better but 1. Makes most if not all addons incompatible without a serious amount rework 2. Not seen as superior to MSFS by the developers and doesn’t grow the P3D user base 

Under that scenario, I think it may be the end of P3D for the consumer market, because what makes P3D amazing is all the add-ons we enjoy. 
 

Now, LM have come out themselves and said they will not be doing anything to break compatibility for existing addons, so I don’t think we can expect that. However, it does beg the question as how much improvement we can expect without breaking compatibility. I’m not a technical expert, but doesn’t that completely rule out a new engine? 

[d.tsakiris 418]

50 minutes ago, DChockey08 said:

compatibility. I’m not a technical expert, but doesn’t that completely rule out a new engine? 

I don't think so. I believe a large part of “the engine“ has already been changed already since LM took over, and it's still compatible to FSX scenery add-ons.

Edited February 17, 2023 by d.tsakiris
Precision

[Daube 353]

6 hours ago, DChockey08 said:

Could be. Here’s one thing I’m afraid of: imagine a world where we have a much improved P3D (new engine, etc) that is better but 1. Makes most if not all addons incompatible without a serious amount rework 2. Not seen as superior to MSFS by the developers and doesn’t grow the P3D user base 

Under that scenario, I think it may be the end of P3D for the consumer market, because what makes P3D amazing is all the add-ons we enjoy. 
 

Now, LM have come out themselves and said they will not be doing anything to break compatibility for existing addons, so I don’t think we can expect that. However, it does beg the question as how much improvement we can expect without breaking compatibility. I’m not a technical expert, but doesn’t that completely rule out a new engine? 

The incompatibility of old addons does not really scare me. It certainly didn't stop me from buying XPlane and MSFS, and enjoying both of them fully with both freeware and payware addons. So why would it stop me from getting and enjoying P3Dv6 ? 🙂

Concerning the developers, it's not up to them to decide. They just follow the customers. They left the P3D market when most of the old customers went to MSFS (not even counting all of the new customers that appeared in there). *IF* the v6 of P3D does as good as MSFS (or better, who knows?), chances are customers might return and make the P3D market valuable again for 3rd party devs.

That being said, if LM outputs a v6 that is really just a 5.4 in disguise, then hope will be gone.

 

 

[Christopher Low 5,354]

P3Dv6 really needs to include an upgrade of the SDK that allows developers to make and see modifications in game to have any chance of encouraging developers to return.

[Christopher Low 5,354]

On a side note....how many of those "featured developers" on the homepage have now disappeared into the shadows after being seduced by the One Bing?

[Ray Proudfoot 8,960]

8 hours ago, Christopher Low said:

P3Dv6 really needs to include an upgrade of the SDK that allows developers to make and see modifications in game to have any chance of encouraging developers to return.

I think it was Gary Summons who compared airport creation in MSFS with P3D. He said it was so much easier in MSFS as the available tools were better. In that respect LM have missed an opportunity really but the downside of that would be a new scenery engine with no backward compatibility.

I think v6 will not be a ground breaking release. Maybe that will be the last using the ESP engine and new technology is embraced.

[Ronaldo1978 26]

There will be a time of getting rid of ESP and entering something new. This also means we will lost (some of) the backward compability. It is inevitable at some point. And I think it might come now. And I looking forward to it, because I still not see my flightsim future with an X-box game, MSFS.

[BlueStar 323]

I've been doing desktop flight sims since Bruce Artwick.  Over the years I have spent thousands of dollars on scenery and aircraft.  This doesn't count what I've spent on the hardware.  When MSFS 2020 was released most of the developers left P3d for MSFS and stopped doing updates and providing new sceneries for those of us who stayed with P3d.

What I have decided is to not buy any new scenery or aircraft from any of the 3rd party developers.  Compibility  is no longer an issue for me.  As long as I have ADE or a similar tool I can keep my sceneries updated.  The great thing about Aerowinx PSX B744 is I'm no longer tied to P3d, MSFS or X-plane.    

[neilhewitt 494]

Here's the thing, though. If P3D does move over to a completely new graphics engine and this breaks backwards compatibility with existing add-ons, we're not magically going to get many new add-ons from the few developers left in the P3D market, and we would have to rely on the base sim. LM will not spend as much time and money on scenery, airports etc as Microsoft does except in as much as the new world engine gives them. We'd still need and want 3rd party scenery and especially aircraft. A 'new' P3D without a study-level 737 etc would be pointless. And without the P3D user base expanding hugely, most 3rd party devs have already made clear that they're not going to spend time and money making products for the P3D market when they can focus exclusively on MSFS and make much more than they used to in P3D-land. 

I just don't see any way around that unless completely new devs enter the market, and if they have the skills to develop for a new P3D, they also have the skills to develop for MSFS, where the market is just much, much bigger; and the cycle begins again. 

One sim platform dominating the sector as much as MSFS already does is terrible for our hobby, IMHO, but it has happened and there's no going back. Not until MSFS dies and developers need to move to a platform where there are still users who will purchase add-ons. 

It sucks, but I do not see a way around it. 

[chapstick 2,757]

1 hour ago, neilhewitt said:

One sim platform dominating the sector as much as MSFS already does is terrible for our hobby, IMHO, but it has happened and there's no going back

We're really just going back to how it was in the FSX days. It was Microsoft and Laminar and that's it. P3D is basically finished in terms of getting new users in the door. Between MSFS and XP12, there's actually never been a better time to be a flight simmer.

[787flyer 633]

20 hours ago, neilhewitt said:

Here's the thing, though. If P3D does move over to a completely new graphics engine and this breaks backwards compatibility with existing add-ons, we're not magically going to get many new add-ons from the few developers left in the P3D market, and we would have to rely on the base sim. LM will not spend as much time and money on scenery, airports etc as Microsoft does except in as much as the new world engine gives them. We'd still need and want 3rd party scenery and especially aircraft. A 'new' P3D without a study-level 737 etc would be pointless. And without the P3D user base expanding hugely, most 3rd party devs have already made clear that they're not going to spend time and money making products for the P3D market when they can focus exclusively on MSFS and make much more than they used to in P3D-land. 

I just don't see any way around that unless completely new devs enter the market, and if they have the skills to develop for a new P3D, they also have the skills to develop for MSFS, where the market is just much, much bigger; and the cycle begins again. 

One sim platform dominating the sector as much as MSFS already does is terrible for our hobby, IMHO, but it has happened and there's no going back. Not until MSFS dies and developers need to move to a platform where there are still users who will purchase add-ons. 

It sucks, but I do not see a way around it. 

I agree with your comments Neil.

The only thing I can think of which may avoid the inevitability you speak of is, would LM be developing something that could be potentially compatible with MSFS sceneries and other add-ons or are at least could easily be converted/ported into the "new P3D environment" by current MSFS developers? Otherwise, its hard to believe that the current set of developers that have migrated to MSFS would return to P3D. I know that's a "long shot" vision since P3D's main customer base is not the entertainment market.

 

FWIW, if there's no immediate solution or obvious option to turn to, I may just stick with P3Dv5 and make the best of my investment I have today. While its' not a perfect sim by any means and the graphics engine could do with an overhaul, I really still do get the enjoyment out of flying in P3Dv5.

[dave2013 1,130]

21 hours ago, neilhewitt said:

A 'new' P3D without a study-level 737 etc would be pointless.

I don't agree with this at all.  I fly mostly freeware planes and still enjoy the sim.  I do spend a lot of time tuning the cfg to get the aircraft as close to real world specs as I can, but I don't need all the bells and whistles that overly expensive "study-level" payware planes offer.

Dave

[sdirand 247]

I agree 100% with Neil Hewitt.

First scenerio

The new P3D is way better than msfs, I mean, not only it closes the gap in term of graphics, it is way better and we all have the "WOW effect" like the first time we saw the first video from Asobo. And cherrish on the cake, it is still compatible with P3D. Well, let's pray but I think nobody expect it to happend.

Second scenario

Almost the same scenario but unfortunately, it means no backward compatibility with 5.3. It is already a more realistic scenario. Users and developpers needs to start from scratch but well, they did it with success with msfs, so why not? Some users would stay with msfs like some users are still using P3D today but it the only scenario in which P3D could sucess. The beginning will be difficult because look at msfs now, it took 3 years to have quality aircraft but it will do it, users and developpers would come back.

Third scenario

The new P3D is more a 5.4 than a 6.0, with backward compatibility. but it will be difficult to success. Most of the current simmers still using 5.3 will probably buy the new version but how many are left? Not enough to bring back the developpers. And if this new version require new installers or slight compatibility modifications like we had when we moved from 4.x to 5.x for exemple, I bet most developpers won't even update their products. "You bought it for 5.x and we never promised it to be compatible with the new versions". In fact, that would be the worst scenario because in that case, not only nobody would switch back from msfs, but most P3D users would even stay with 5.3

Fourth Scenario

The new P3D is way better than 5.3 but not enough good to completey bring msfs into the ropes. Let's say it will come close. It means probably no compatibility with current add-ons, so everybody, users and developpers have to start from scratch. Again, why would someone using msfs switch back to P3D in that case? Some people don't want to switch to msfs because they have tons of add-ons for P3D. I can understand that. But the more msfs will be in place, the more it will also be true for msfs users. If you already spent a lot on msfs, you need to have something really better to switch back. You won't lose your add-ons and start over for something not better. it worked with msfs because you had something really new with next gen graphics compared to P3D but it won't work if P3D is just as good. And if players don't switch back, it means no developpers.

To conclude: The chance to see P3D claiming back his crown are quite slim. LM would have to come back with something way better than msfs, by far. We need to have this "wow effect" again! Can they do it? We will see. but they will also need to change their philosophy. They can not release a new sim and bring a new update once a year like in the past, with absolutely no communication, no interraction with the users.  Look at Asobo, msfs has it's flaws and is far from perfect, but Asobo really work on the product with continuous updates, continuous new contents like the World Updates, 40th anniversarry update, etc. They also have the power of Microsoft to back them up. It remains to be seen if LM really wants to invest time and ressources for the home market. They don't really do it now so it would require a complete change of strategy.

So, I'm not really optimistic, sorry.

Edited February 20, 2023 by sdirand

[tamba765 54]

We haven't heard anything from LM in over a year. Do you guys really think there's anything in the works? I don't.

[Ray Proudfoot 8,960]

18 minutes ago, tamba765 said:

We haven't heard anything from LM in over a year. Do you guys really think there's anything in the works? I don't.

Trust me. There is. They’re renowned for being more silent than a Trappist monk. 😉