Having just got back into FS after 3-4 yrs and finally getting all my cockpit hardware and my custom FIP gauges running with MSFS20, I am confused re the total lack of VOR frequencies. I only fly with twin props and prefer the old fashioned way of navigating and FSX had many airports offering VORs and NDBs but MSFS20 seems to offer non .. at least in my area ( southern Aust.). I am assuming its just not on to be seen not using the latest nav aids... but I'm hoping..., is there a database somewhere in the sim that frequencies can be obtained which work ... if not, can VORs / NDBs be added in as a mod which I used to do in FSX via Airport Design Editor

 

54 minutes ago, robb13 said:

Having just got back into FS after 3-4 yrs and finally getting all my cockpit hardware and my custom FIP gauges running with MSFS20, I am confused re the total lack of VOR frequencies. I only fly with twin props and prefer the old fashioned way of navigating and FSX had many airports offering VORs and NDBs but MSFS20 seems to offer non .. at least in my area ( southern Aust.). I am assuming its just not on to be seen not using the latest nav aids... but I'm hoping..., is there a database somewhere in the sim that frequencies can be obtained which work ... if not, can VORs / NDBs be added in as a mod which I used to do in FSX via Airport Design Editor

 

Where are you looking for VOR and NDB frequencies? 

I've only flown in Australia a few times, but if I look on Little NavMap or Navigraph charts, I see frequencies for VORs AV (near YMAV) and ML (near YMML), and NDB MB (near YMMB). So it seems the Navaid frequencies are in the MSFS database.

Al

Edited May 18, 20233 yr by ark

My understanding is that they're slowly being phased out around the globe, so MSFS is likely reflecting this. I would like a mod that brought all of them back though. Somebody made one for FSX as I recall. If we now have Meigs, why not old navaids?

Edited May 18, 20233 yr by Bones62

If you fancy reflying some *historical* routes, then a suitable mod would be ideal.

11 hours ago, robb13 said:

Having just got back into FS after 3-4 yrs and finally getting all my cockpit hardware and my custom FIP gauges running with MSFS20, I am confused re the total lack of VOR frequencies. I only fly with twin props and prefer the old fashioned way of navigating and FSX had many airports offering VORs and NDBs but MSFS20 seems to offer non .. at least in my area ( southern Aust.). I am assuming its just not on to be seen not using the latest nav aids... but I'm hoping..., is there a database somewhere in the sim that frequencies can be obtained which work ... if not, can VORs / NDBs be added in as a mod which I used to do in FSX via Airport Design Editor

 

Most VOR's and NDB's have been phased out in Australia as part of the transition to GNSS based navigation. A small number remain in operation as part of the "Backup Network".

At some point they will all be gone, and most modern aircraft e.g. Cirrus do not even have and ADF receiver at all.

Edited May 19, 20233 yr by DavidP

Thanks for replies.. I've now found the Nav chart and see some VORs and enough NDBs.    I had heard VORs and NDBs were getting redundant so I guess it makes sense that MSFS20 would reflect the status quo. Next step for me is to get LittleNavMap up and running in MSFS20 and then check out ADE to see how it has integrated with it. 

I must say that the default scenery is good in most ways but the coloration is way off for places like Australia. There does not seem to be any difference between seasons..  In reality there is no such thing as a green paddock in Australia over summer. ( I have default scenery as I have limited broadband quota.)

Any reference I use with VORs for navigating seems to align with ForeFlight just fine, but they are slowly being decommissioned.  NDBs are all but gone it seems.  Everyone hated NDBs, so I doubt they're missed much.  Even places that list them as current are out of date.  SkyVector shows Scottsdale having an NDB, but I don't think that airport has had an NDB for years.  We had one near Chandler AZ for a while, but I noticed it was gone the last couple years.  Looks like Ryan Airfield in Tucson, AZ has one still. 

The advent of GPS-based flying with Garmin and other navigation aids has put land-based aids out of business.  I personally think VORs and ILS's should be kept up and maintained, but I've read that a some ILS's will be removed too.  Seems a bit premature to strip them since a lot of planes can't come down nearly as close to the ground/RWY on an GNS approach. 

21 minutes ago, robb13 said:

Thanks for replies.. I've now found the Nav chart and see some VORs and enough NDBs.    I had heard VORs and NDBs were getting redundant so I guess it makes sense that MSFS20 would reflect the status quo. Next step for me is to get LittleNavMap up and running in MSFS20 and then check out ADE to see how it has integrated with it. 

I must say that the default scenery is good in most ways but the coloration is way off for places like Australia. There does not seem to be any difference between seasons..  In reality there is no such thing as a green paddock in Australia over summer. ( I have default scenery as I have limited broadband quota.)

There are ways to change that, REX has a software texture replacement and Bijan 4 Season Pack, as well.  Both are payware and I've not seen a reason to buy them personally.  There are criticisms of both offerings.  Best to check YouTube for some reviews so you can see what they look like.  But they do provide ways to change colors and overall appearances of the land.  I'm sure some freeware exists too.

"Everyone hated NDBs"

well to me the only people who hated NDB's were those who didn't understand them & couldn't fly an accurate NBD course or fly an accurate NDB approach - I used to love them because they were so damned hard to do a really good one & I can assure you also that teaching people to fly the NDB was always a challenge - but really a good feeling when on of your pupils actually twigged & could fly them - a real feeling of accomplishment that is so missing these days (or am I just a grumpy old pilot)

1 hour ago, Rattso said:

"Everyone hated NDBs"

well to me the only people who hated NDB's were those who didn't understand them & couldn't fly an accurate NBD course or fly an accurate NDB approach - I used to love them because they were so damned hard to do a really good one & I can assure you also that teaching people to fly the NDB was always a challenge - but really a good feeling when on of your pupils actually twigged & could fly them - a real feeling of accomplishment that is so missing these days (or am I just a grumpy old pilot)

I'm with you, love doing ADF approaches. When I got my UK instrument rating back in the eighties, all the aircraft were equipped with RBI's (Relative Bearing Indicator), where the compass rose was fixed with zero at the top, and relative bearings were needed to account for the drift. E.G., if you were correcting right 10 degrees for drift, you'd expect to see the needle on 350, 10 degrees left of the nose. These days almost all aircraft use RMI's, where the ADF needle is superimposed on a slaved direction indicator. This makes things a lot easier, if you'd trained on an RBI, an RMI was a doddle, but if you'd trained on an RMI and then flew an aircraft with only a RBI, you could be in trouble!

RBI ADF approaches in windy conditions could be a challenge, especially if crossing the NDB on the approach, and having the beacon behind you as you approached minima!

Eugene

Edited May 19, 20233 yr by Overload
Spelling!

NDB approaches are fun, and in the sim or decent weather they're fun.  But I think it's a different story when you have crappy weather and such rudimentary navigation to get to a runway.  I'm reminded of Flying Tigers 66 into Kuala Lumpur.  This guys were word not allowed that it was an NDB they were given.  Yeah it was their fault for not realizing the ILS was out or paying attention, but it threw them off and they died.  Or the 1996 Croatia crash with Ron Brown and other military personnel on board.  Said to be a plate design problem, but still.

I think it's a lot like morse code in amateur radio.  The diehards who learned it because they had to has mixed feeling about it going away as a requirement.  Technology has pretty much removed the need for it, and much like NDB, it's just not necessary anymore.  Pilots have enough to contend with IMO, and to add to the danger is a major short-coming when pilots crash all the time for other reasons.

I got worse outcome tracking a certain QDM of a tuned NDB vs using my Garmin D2 watch as HSI (having the NDB as a D-TO fix)

So it's most likely that NDB navigation is outperformed by a 600 dollar smart watch. (Running GPS/Galileo, and using authentic AIRAC-db, mind you).