MSFS tops Navigraph 2023 survey results

[abrams_tank 7,445]

20 hours ago, simbol said:

And people were disputing me why I decided to do addons for msfs.. maths don't lie.

Regarding the xbox numbers, they look small in the survey, but based on my sales from 2021 to 2023, lots of users that started on xbox have moved to PC, so the xbox HARD CORE user base have been migrating to PC.

At the moment I see 25% to 30% of my sales being on the consoles vs 50% as in 2021.

Xbox users are being plaged with badly optimisation addons causing lots of troubles for them, so they have now reduced their foot print in the purchase space unless you are a well known brand / company which known what to do to ensure your product works almost problem free on the console, lately all their issues seems to be sceneries with a ton of 4k textures even for the LODs outside of 20% screen size, causing a ram overload.. at that point stutters, ctds and avionics blacks outs will occur.. xbox users that keep their consoles vanilla (no sceneries, no WUs) can fly most aircraft with no issues but as soon as a 3rd party addons sceneries is installed and it had bad optimisation, boom..

This has been driving Xbox users either out of msfs or towards a PC. I will continue supporting consoles, with proper optimisation, it is important to keep inspiring new aviators.

My two cents,

Raul

Hi Simbol. I would like to thank you very, very, much, for disclosing the percentage of your sales that come from XBox.  I think you are the first 3rd party developer that I have read, to disclose the percentage of their sales coming from XBox (for anybody reading this, if there are other 3rd party developers who are selling for both their MSFS add-ons for both PC and XBox and they voluntarily disclosed the percentage of sales coming from XBox publicly, please post the link to their comments in this thread, thanks!).

Anyways, if other 3rd party developers who develop add-ons for both PC and XBox are also seeing similar statistics, that approximately 25% to 30% their sales are coming from XBox, then this Navigraph survey, IMHO, is probably underrepresenting the total MSFS market because only 2.6% of the Navigraph survey takers were using XBox as their primary hardware to run their flight simulator. As I said earlier, as a 3rd party developer, they should consider that this Navigraph survey is underrepresenting the true market size of MSFS, and that if they develop for MSFS and they sell on XBox as well as PC, they could make even more money than they would expect from this survey. 

 

Edited December 24, 2023 by abrams_tank

[abrams_tank 7,445]

2 hours ago, Scottoest said:

It's a voluntary census of the community, that almost certainly skews towards a more "hardcore" simming audience by virtue of being conducted by Navigraph.  From that, I would hazard a guess that MSFS is actually a bit UNDER-represented in these results relative to the entire base of people who use flight sims, buy add-ons, etc.  simbol mentioned that their console sales are actually more like 20-30%, yet console was low single digits in the survey -  that might provide an anecdotal insight into some of the people who aren't represented in the results.

Yes, I agree. I think MSFS is underrepresented in this survey.  With Simbol's information, now I can at least grasp what Randazzo meant when he recently made remarks about the size of the MSFS market (relative to P3D).  I still think Randazzo was probably exaggerating, but I assume that Randazzo must have included PMDG's sales on XBox to make that comment. 

Edited December 24, 2023 by abrams_tank

[Lange_666 167]

57 minutes ago, abrams_tank said:

Yes, I agree. I think MSFS is underrepresented in this survey.

I think it's the other way around. I for instance had no idea about a Navigraph survey going on. My main flightsim is DCS and not in any DCS/Falcon forum i follow i saw an announcement about Navigraph doing a survey (and i missed it on Avsim if it was even announced).
I think that if the same survey would have been hold with only an announcement on let's say the main Eagle Dynamics DCS forum, the outcome would be totally different.

[lwt1971 7,451]

4 hours ago, Lange_666 said:

I think it's the other way around. I for instance had no idea about a Navigraph survey going on.

Navigraph blasted out the news about the survey being open for submissions on pretty much every flight simming news/aggregrator site out there, and so did all their various partners from the flight-sim/aviation world on their own sites/channels (listed at bottom of https://navigraph.com/survey). And after this various threads also got created on various sims' specific forums by users, etc. I mean, it probably got the most exposure it could've have (and similar to previous years). They've done the same survey before MSFS came out (i.e. 2019, 2018, etc), so it's always gotten to all sim users. But like many have said here, the likely respondents are those of the more "serious / hardcore" simmer kind using Navigraph, so that'd be users of the civilian flight sims, and I guess DCS to a lesser degree (though DCS users certainly have participated in all the years of this survey).
 

Edited December 24, 2023 by lwt1971

[MDFlier 2,031]

6 hours ago, abrams_tank said:

I'm a little shocked to see some of those simulator versions still being used.

While I absolutely enjoyed FS98, 2002, and FS2004 when they were the current version, I can't think of anything remarkable in any of them that would make me want to use it in 2023.

I can understand still using P3D v5 or v6 (never tried v6 myself - was that an update from v5 that required a new purchase?) , but v1? Why?  

I've never been in the same room with X-Plane but I assume that v11 is pretty old as well? 

Just makes you wonder sometimes. I would think that it might even be more difficult to run an older sim on a new computer considering the massive differences between HW of the day these sims were released and today. 

[MDFlier 2,031]

24 minutes ago, lwt1971 said:

Navigraph blasted out the news about the survey being open for submissions on pretty much every flight simming news/aggregrator site out there, and so did all their various partners from the flight-sim/aviation world on their own sites/channels (listed at bottom of https://navigraph.com/survey). And after this various threads also got created on various sims' specific forums by users, etc. I mean, it probably got the most exposure it could've have (and similar to previous years). They've done the same survey before MSFS came out (i.e. 2019, 2018, etc), so it's always gotten to all sim users. But like many have said here, the likely respondents are those of the more "serious / hardcore" simmer kind using Navigraph, so that'd be users of the civilian flight sims, and I guess DCS to a lesser degree (though DCS users certainly have participated in all the years of this survey).
 

I saw a link to the Navigraph survey pop up on a web page that had nothing at all to do with computers. I was using a computer set up at a local store to search their inventory for a product, and there were ads showing down the side of the browser window. I noticed the Navigraph logo straight away. It freaked me out a little because I was thinking to myself 'why am I seeing flight sim related stuff on a random computer that I just happened to walk up to?'. I even checked to see if I had my cell phone with me figuring that some ad tracking stuff had figured out that I was using that computer so it served up some flight sim stuff for me. My cell was in my coat pocket in the car but you never know...

[David Mills 4,774]

David Mills said, "Many in the survey who stuck with XP did so because they use operating systems that can't host MSFS (i.e., Macs)."

20 hours ago, UrgentSiesta said:

I can't seem to find that metric in the survey (or anywhere), - can you point us to it?

According to Laminar Research, the majority of their players run Windows (just like the majority of computer users in general).

My point was that the number of MSFS users is slightly reduced by the fact that Macs can't run MSFS (without herculean contrivance). Simmers owning Apple-only hardware are not, generally speaking, going to buy Windows-only software, however desirable that software may be to them. Therefore the number of MSFS sales is, to a limited degree, attenuated by hardware/operating system incompatibilities with Apple. In that regard, I'll give XP credit for being multi-platform. I suppose there could have been a question on the survey to the effect of, "If MSFS ran on your Mac, would you purchase a copy?" But there was no such question. If there had indeed been such a question, I'm sure that some of the Mac users would have responded "yes," they would purchase and switch to MSFS as their preferred flight simulator. I stand by my original comment above.

[SamYeager 245]

I don't really look at aggregator sites that often but I do tend to look at this forum on a daily basis and I never saw anything about the survey. I subscribe to Navigraph as well so it seems they don't even remind their subscribers.

[UrgentSiesta 936]

11 hours ago, abrams_tank said:

I saw you create multiple comments off of my one paragraph and cause a lot of controversy with others.  But please read what I wrote carefully as I used the word "prefer":

I was referring to the Navigraph chart where it says "Simulator Preference":

 

Nowhere in my paragraph that you referenced did I mention "quality" or what is "superior."  I don't know how you came up with that.  Again, please read my paragraph carefully.  And if this is settled, I hope we can move on to other discussions.

Wow, you can't even understand your own posts and why people might disagree.

It's not your use of the word "prefer" that's problematic.

And that MSFS is the overwhelmingly preferred simulator is, of course, incontrovertible.

Rather, it's your simping deduction that MSFS is the preference of "hard core" simmers, with the knock-on leaps of logical fallacy...

Quote

[since] only 2.6% of Navigraph survey users were primarily using consoles. This means the vast majority of Navigraph survey users are probably "hard core" flight simmers. And what flight simulator do the "hard core" flight simmers prefer? Yup, that's right. The "hard core" flight simmers prefer MSFS (FYI, this is not surprising, as Avsim is mostly made up of hard core flight simmers, and the overwhelming majority of Avsim are active in the MSFS forum now).

...as though hard-core simmers prefer MSFS because it's a hard-core sim. SMH...

Many people prefer MSFS because of the COMBINATION of it's merits as a flight sim, AND the fact that it offers the best graphics ever. As well as a panoply of additional reasons that are well understood in consumer good marketing.

 

[Tuskin38 6,617]

3 minutes ago, UrgentSiesta said:

Wow, you can't even understand your own posts

Pretty sure the person making the post understands it better than you do. They wrote the freaking thing.

 

  

3 minutes ago, SamYeager said:

I don't really look at aggregator sites that often but I do tend to look at this forum on a daily basis and I never saw anything about the survey. I subscribe to Navigraph as well so it seems they don't even remind their subscribers.

I got an e-mail from Navigraph telling me about the survey. Maybe you don't have the newsletter enabled?

Edited December 24, 2023 by Tuskin38

[abrams_tank 7,445]

5 minutes ago, UrgentSiesta said:

Wow, you can't even understand your own posts and why people might disagree.

It's not your use of the word "prefer" that's problematic.

And that MSFS is the overwhelmingly preferred simulator is, of course, incontrovertible.

Rather, it's your simping deduction that MSFS is the preference of "hard core" simmers, with the knock-on leaps of logical fallacy...

...as though hard-core simmers prefer MSFS because it's a hard-core sim. SMH...

Many people prefer MSFS because of the COMBINATION of it's merits as a flight sim, AND the fact that it offers the best graphics ever. As well as a panoply of additional reasons that are well understood in consumer good marketing.

 

Let's just say we disagree on this. @Krakin and @lwt1971 already explained to you, as have others. Stop digging a hole, you keep digging a hole and it keeps getting deeper. Just move onto another discussion.  Can you do that?

Edited December 24, 2023 by abrams_tank

[UrgentSiesta 936]

26 minutes ago, David Mills said:

David Mills said, "Many in the survey who stuck with XP did so because they use operating systems that can't host MSFS (i.e., Macs)."

My point was that the number of MSFS users is slightly reduced by the fact that Macs can't run MSFS (without herculean contrivance). Simmers owning Apple-only hardware are not, generally speaking, going to buy Windows-only software, however desirable that software may be to them. Therefore the number of MSFS sales is, to a limited degree, attenuated by hardware/operating system incompatibilities with Apple. In that regard, I'll give XP credit for being multi-platform. I suppose there could have been a question on the survey to the effect of, "If MSFS ran on your Mac, would you purchase a copy?" But there was no such question. If there had indeed been such a question, I'm sure that some of the Mac users would have responded "yes," they would purchase and switch to MSFS as their preferred flight simulator. I stand by my original comment above.

Thank you for the clarification.

However, it's not the base assertion I take issue with - it's the word "many" - since this is a quantitative survey, after all.

I was, many years ago, one of the exact people you describe - using X-Plane because I had a very nice Mac graphics workstation, and because of it's well deserved reputation for having the best flight dynamics, etc.

And therefore I agree with your assertion, other than assuming that "many" would switch, because it's total supposition.

[UrgentSiesta 936]

2 minutes ago, abrams_tank said:

Let's just say we disagree on this. @Krakin and @lwt1971 already explained to you, as have others. Stop digging a hole, you keep digging a hole and it keeps getting deeper. Just move onto another discussion.  Can you do that?

We can all agree to disagree, but to (again, as usual) imply that I've somehow been 'splained by others is yet another example of your shallow hubris.

[lwt1971 7,451]

57 minutes ago, UrgentSiesta said:

Rather, it's your simping deduction that MSFS is the preference of "hard core" simmers, with the knock-on leaps of logical fallacy...

...as though hard-core simmers prefer MSFS because it's a hard-core sim. SMH...

The words "hardcore" and "serious" are being thrown around here as if they are well defined and somehow some/many folks are able to arbitrate if a sim is hardcore or not. How do you define what hardcore is? And how do you know that many of the survey respondents are *not* hardcore, or think that MSFS is *not* hardcore but still prefer it? (my point is we really can't know, and can only look at the data i.e. below)

Just considering these known facts from the surveys of last two years:

• 64% prefer IFR, 19% prefer VFR
• in a sim aircraft these were the most valued aircraft features: systems complexity - 38%, realism and authenticity - 26.6%, flight model accuracy - 17.4%, graphics/visuals - 10.4% .
• in last year's survey in terms of what aspect of a flight sim is most important to them, the answers were:
  •  the #1 factor was realistic aerodynamic model, with 60% rating it as very important, and 35% rating it as important
  •  the #2 factor was realistic world graphics, with 50% rating it as very important and 40% rating it as important
• it's well known that most of those who tend to use Navigraph, and/or take this survey, are simmers who aren't of the casual kind (to say the very least)

So given the above, is it that much of a stretch then to say that those who participated in this survey do "serious" simming? And given that ~70% of them prefer MSFS, then it's not too hard to infer they consider MSFS to be up to that task of serious simming? (one can use "serious" and "hardcore" interchangeably here as one wishes)

I consider myself one of these 70%, who until May 2022 was impressed by the world depiction fidelity of MSFS but very unimpressed with the only aircraft we had available at that time, the default ones. Fast forward to now, in addition to graphics fidelity, we also have numerous payware and much improved default aircraft of high fidelity in terms of FM/avionics/systems/etc and the base sim moving forward with CFD flight model tech (I consider only the ground handling to be a problem area and thankfully that's being reworked in v2024 with a partial backport to v2020 SU15). So a sim that ticks off most boxes, giving me *both* visual fidelity and aeronautical fidelity, of course I'd easily rate that as my primary sim (as did apparently ~16,600 people out of the ~23,700 surveyed).
 

Edited December 24, 2023 by lwt1971

[Krakin 5,831]

@UrgentSiesta You are now putting words in Abrams mouth that you know you shouldn't. It is ok to admit you misunderstood what he was trying to say. No one is going to think less of you if you do.