Hi, everybody,

I'm having very difficult handling with the Cessna 172 on the ground after the SU15 Beta (every SU15 update, not just the last one).

It happens especially in the turns. The aircraft tilts a lot, even at low speed on the taxiway or runway. It leans so much that she eventually tips over!

I have tried to adjust the sensitivity of the controls, but the problem remains the same. 

Does this happen to anyone else?

Thanks in advance and regards.

 

 

 

Edited February 29, 20242 yr by John Fields

How are you turning? I've heard that they've updated the flight model to be more representative of the actual aircraft - so that the wheels turn max ~10º and the rest of the turn has to be handled using differential braking.

I've not experienced any tipping myself, but have found the aircraft to turn a lot less when using solely the rudder pedals. Perhaps your speed is a little high also?

 

1 minute ago, Redge said:

How are you turning? I've heard that they've updated the flight model to be more representative of the actual aircraft - so that the wheels turn max ~10º and the rest of the turn has to be handled using differential braking.

I've not experienced any tipping myself, but have found the aircraft to turn a lot less when using solely the rudder pedals. Perhaps your speed is a little high also?

 

Hi, Redge,

I'm turning as I have done since I had the first ms flight simulator in 1987 and this had never happened to me before.

I usually go max 20 miles per hour or so. The plane sometimes capsizes.

I knew that asobo had made changes and that the differential brakes had to be used more, but it still seems like an exaggeration to me.

What surprises me the most is that changes in the sensitivity of the controls do not seem to affect the behaviour of the aircraft  (I use Thrustmaster 16,000 with pedals.

Thank you for your help.

 

 

 

Hi, again,

This change in the turning of the C172 in the MSFS 2020 could be verified by a real pilot.
Is there anyone who can shed light on this topic?
Greetings

Edited February 29, 20242 yr by John Fields

8 hours ago, John Fields said:

Hi, again,

This change in the turning of the C172 in the MSFS 2020 could be verified by a real pilot.
Is there anyone who can shed light on this topic?
Greetings

Yes, the real C172 has a much narrower turning rate on the nosewheel than pretty much all C172 models in flight sims.   It will turn just over 10 degrees with the nosewheel locked full to the left or right.   10 degrees is very little, and you need to use differential braking to make the majority of turns involved in navigating around a typical GA airfield's aprons/taxiways.

PS.   20kts is too fast for a C172 taxi.   Maybe not in a straight line but if you're attempting to turn on the ground at 20kts, then yes, that is your problem and that's why it's tipping over.    Trying making turns (particularly tighter turns) at 10kts and see if that makes a difference.

Edited February 29, 20242 yr by JYW

10 hours ago, JYW said:

Yes, the real C172 has a much narrower turning rate on the nosewheel than pretty much all C172 models in flight sims.   It will turn just over 10 degrees with the nosewheel locked full to the left or right.   10 degrees is very little, and you need to use differential braking to make the majority of turns involved in navigating around a typical GA airfield's aprons/taxiways.

PS.   20kts is too fast for a C172 taxi.   Maybe not in a straight line but if you're attempting to turn on the ground at 20kts, then yes, that is your problem and that's why it's tipping over.    Trying making turns (particularly tighter turns) at 10kts and see if that makes a difference.

Thank you, JYW!

Now it is crystal clear!

Regards.

We were always taught to taxi the 172 at a fast walking pace.  If you try to turn too tightly on the ground too fast any high wing aircraft runs the risk of tipping over, especially in a strong wind.  You will certainly find that it feels like it is about to tip over way before it does in real life.  I've not tried SU15 so can't comment on the realism but it sounds realistic from what you are describing.

You also need to use your elevator and ailerons when taxi-ing to take into account the wind direction and I don't know how much that is now simulated.  Think about taking account of the wind direction at each turn and using your yoke or stick to keep the into wing wing down and tail down.

1 hour ago, cianpars said:

We were always taught to taxi the 172 at a fast walking pace.  If you try to turn too tightly on the ground too fast any high wing aircraft runs the risk of tipping over, especially in a strong wind.  You will certainly find that it feels like it is about to tip over way before it does in real life.  I've not tried SU15 so can't comment on the realism but it sounds realistic from what you are describing.

You also need to use your elevator and ailerons when taxi-ing to take into account the wind direction and I don't know how much that is now simulated.  Think about taking account of the wind direction at each turn and using your yoke or stick to keep the into wing wing down and tail down.

Thank you, cianpars!

 

On 2/29/2024 at 11:37 AM, John Fields said:

Hi, everybody,

I'm having very difficult handling with the Cessna 172 on the ground after the SU15 Beta (every SU15 update, not just the last one).

It happens especially in the turns. The aircraft tilts a lot, even at low speed on the taxiway or runway. It leans so much that she eventually tips over!

I have tried to adjust the sensitivity of the controls, but the problem remains the same. 

Does this happen to anyone else?

Thanks in advance and regards.

 

 

 

Hey John, I did try my best to reproduce your experience, namely taxiing at an abnornally high taxi speed for a C172 - 25 knot - and then turning sharp, and couldn't reproduce any of the strange effects you mentioned.

I checked and the new entries are there and active in the default C172 flight dynamics conf file.

OTOH I couldn't really notice any notable difference in the ground performance, including in takeoffs and landings under gusting winds.

Will try to enable those entries in other props aircraft and see what I find ...

Edited March 1, 20242 yr by jcomm

John, be sure to read thru this thread on the official forums about the ground handling improvements implemented in the C172 and Cabri, various IRL C172 pilots chiming in there: https://forums.flightsimulator.com/t/ground-contact-resolution-improvements/630251

Most are seeing noticeable improvements (I'm yet to jump into the beta 🙂). And as JYW says above the default C172 now simulates turning more realistically apparently (in that it's not as easy as it was before):

• I'm testing out the c172 right now and yes ive noticed a big change taxing using auto rudder I dont have pedals, It no longer feels like im trying to turn a truck around the taxiway, I barely have to move the yoke or brakes to get lined up on the taxiway
• So I tried this last night. I jumped into the 172 at Alderney 26 (fairly short and narrow) and set up a 20G30 southerly, checked with windsock and sea state all good. I then took off and was able to control it on the runway quite well even with the awful TFRP I have. It seemed great.
• I am not an expert, but i tested out the 172 (g1000) and it FELT to me a lot more controllable in take off and landing. It wobbled on the ground and it felt better than i remember
• I flew around Long Island this evening in the XCub & C172. Previous to this beta, I had noticed “slippage” which required a fair amount of corrective rudder to resolve. I landed at & taxied around quite a few airstrips this evening, mostly grass, but also at Gabreski, where I deliberately set up a crosswind for landing. There is, IMO, a significant improvement, both on grass & hard surfaces. Even with the crosswind, I hardly needed to apply any rudder to keep taxiing in a straight line. No sliding at all, so definitely more controllable, as far as I’m concerned. Note: I’m using a Logitech Extreme 3D Pro with the default sensitivity settings. I’d expect the experiences of others to vary based on the controller & settings they are using, but hopefully all will notice at least some improvement.
• I seem to feel a real improvement with the helis. Now I can slowly raise the collective, feel the torque (still on the ground!) and adjust rudder input precisely to get a yaw-free liftoff. This was not possible for me in SU14 and before: Liftoff was abrupt and it was always a game of guessing the correct rudder input in order to lift off halfways yaw free.
• Taxi: It seems that the low speed handling feels more or less correct now, i.e. you can taxi around in a crosswind, without the aircraft weather cocking.
  Takeoff: Throughout the takeoff roll the aircraft feels like it is on rails. The tyres are far too “grippy” where as it should be that as the airspeed increases, the friction on the tyres should decrease (as the lift on the wing increases) and the “grippyness” decreases.
• my 2 cents here, IRL C172 pilot. At last indeed the gear and tires elasticity are there, a welcome change! day and night difference compared to SU14. While still some tuning may be needed, it feel reactive and alive indeed. I only had time for a quick few laps and tried some xwind takeoff/landing. In more extreme winds it felt… easy? maybe too easy? not sure if it’s only the stickiness or if we have gradual stickiness modeled at all but yeah… I can relate to it being somewhat “over-correction” to the weathervane effect. Also felt something different in the ground effect, not sure I can pinpoint… needs more testing and tryout with the parameters
• The aircraft remains fairly controllable in the initial stages of the ground roll, unlike in the pre-SU15. So there’s definitely an improvement. But around 45 knots or so it feels as though there’s a sudden transition in the handling of the aircraft, the aircraft nose weathervanes into the wind aggressively. Tried a few laps in the circuit (pattern for Americans) and can also say that the crosswind landing feels much more realistic than before (it also feels more realistic than the takeoff).
• I just had a quick shot of the C172 in the new beta and to me the ground handling feels much better. The wobbly-ness of it while it’s just sitting there is maybe slightly over exaggerated (tyres sliding about is quite funny) but the friction of the tyres causing it to not immediately weathervane into the wind when taxiing and taking off seems much more realistic to me
• Update on the above for 13.7.5 and 13.7.4 on PC. Tried this with the latest version of the beta, I repeated the exact same setup as last time. I feel that the ground handling has gotten generally a bit better (13.7.2). Iit feels that there is less of an abrupt transition than before. The transition feels smoother. However, it is a bit harder to keep control of the aircraft on the runway during the takeoff roll (which should be possible at 20 knots crosswind), significant and frequent rudder inputs are needed. Also the into-the-wind wing gets lifted by the wind a bit too readily I think (especially given I had zero gusts set in the weather).
   

Edited March 1, 20242 yr by lwt1971

Ok John, you were RIGHT !

There's indeed something strange going on, and the reason I didn't get it was that when I tried it myself Ipicked my preferred C172, one of the reasons I upgraded to the full version of MSFS 2020 - the clockwork C172...

Although they're both from ASOBO, I believe (?), they only applied the new parameters to the G1000.... I tested the G1000 last night and it's indeed completely "weird" in some aspects 🙂

I wouldn't say it is a bug, or it totally doesn't make sense, because I guess a C172 is not supposed to be taxied at much high speeds, nor to make sharp turna at those speeds, but I didn't notice it because I was trying the classic model, and that one does not have the new parameters.

Can you elaborate on what is weird about the ground handling?

I'm interested in the new ground handling model, but I'd rather not risk going to the beta... 

Long time since I flew a real life 172 but 20 mph sounds way to fast.  Unless you are on pavement I suspect you might be risking prop strike on bumps at that speed and ground loop when turning.

21 hours ago, lwt1971 said:

John, be sure to read thru this thread on the official forums about the ground handling improvements implemented in the C172 and Cabri, various IRL C172 pilots chiming in there: https://forums.flightsimulator.com/t/ground-contact-resolution-improvements/630251

Most are seeing noticeable improvements (I'm yet to jump into the beta 🙂). And as JYW says above the default C172 now simulates turning more realistically apparently (in that it's not as easy as it was before):

• I'm testing out the c172 right now and yes ive noticed a big change taxing using auto rudder I dont have pedals, It no longer feels like im trying to turn a truck around the taxiway, I barely have to move the yoke or brakes to get lined up on the taxiway
• So I tried this last night. I jumped into the 172 at Alderney 26 (fairly short and narrow) and set up a 20G30 southerly, checked with windsock and sea state all good. I then took off and was able to control it on the runway quite well even with the awful TFRP I have. It seemed great.
• I am not an expert, but i tested out the 172 (g1000) and it FELT to me a lot more controllable in take off and landing. It wobbled on the ground and it felt better than i remember
• I flew around Long Island this evening in the XCub & C172. Previous to this beta, I had noticed “slippage” which required a fair amount of corrective rudder to resolve. I landed at & taxied around quite a few airstrips this evening, mostly grass, but also at Gabreski, where I deliberately set up a crosswind for landing. There is, IMO, a significant improvement, both on grass & hard surfaces. Even with the crosswind, I hardly needed to apply any rudder to keep taxiing in a straight line. No sliding at all, so definitely more controllable, as far as I’m concerned. Note: I’m using a Logitech Extreme 3D Pro with the default sensitivity settings. I’d expect the experiences of others to vary based on the controller & settings they are using, but hopefully all will notice at least some improvement.
• I seem to feel a real improvement with the helis. Now I can slowly raise the collective, feel the torque (still on the ground!) and adjust rudder input precisely to get a yaw-free liftoff. This was not possible for me in SU14 and before: Liftoff was abrupt and it was always a game of guessing the correct rudder input in order to lift off halfways yaw free.
• Taxi: It seems that the low speed handling feels more or less correct now, i.e. you can taxi around in a crosswind, without the aircraft weather cocking.
  Takeoff: Throughout the takeoff roll the aircraft feels like it is on rails. The tyres are far too “grippy” where as it should be that as the airspeed increases, the friction on the tyres should decrease (as the lift on the wing increases) and the “grippyness” decreases.
• my 2 cents here, IRL C172 pilot. At last indeed the gear and tires elasticity are there, a welcome change! day and night difference compared to SU14. While still some tuning may be needed, it feel reactive and alive indeed. I only had time for a quick few laps and tried some xwind takeoff/landing. In more extreme winds it felt… easy? maybe too easy? not sure if it’s only the stickiness or if we have gradual stickiness modeled at all but yeah… I can relate to it being somewhat “over-correction” to the weathervane effect. Also felt something different in the ground effect, not sure I can pinpoint… needs more testing and tryout with the parameters
• The aircraft remains fairly controllable in the initial stages of the ground roll, unlike in the pre-SU15. So there’s definitely an improvement. But around 45 knots or so it feels as though there’s a sudden transition in the handling of the aircraft, the aircraft nose weathervanes into the wind aggressively. Tried a few laps in the circuit (pattern for Americans) and can also say that the crosswind landing feels much more realistic than before (it also feels more realistic than the takeoff).
• I just had a quick shot of the C172 in the new beta and to me the ground handling feels much better. The wobbly-ness of it while it’s just sitting there is maybe slightly over exaggerated (tyres sliding about is quite funny) but the friction of the tyres causing it to not immediately weathervane into the wind when taxiing and taking off seems much more realistic to me
• Update on the above for 13.7.5 and 13.7.4 on PC. Tried this with the latest version of the beta, I repeated the exact same setup as last time. I feel that the ground handling has gotten generally a bit better (13.7.2). Iit feels that there is less of an abrupt transition than before. The transition feels smoother. However, it is a bit harder to keep control of the aircraft on the runway during the takeoff roll (which should be possible at 20 knots crosswind), significant and frequent rudder inputs are needed. Also the into-the-wind wing gets lifted by the wind a bit too readily I think (especially given I had zero gusts set in the weather).
   

Thank you Iwt1971!

It's a very detailed and complete report.

Greetings.

 

6 hours ago, martinboehme said:

Can you elaborate on what is weird about the ground handling?

I'm interested in the new ground handling model, but I'd rather not risk going to the beta... 

There are basically three sets o new parameters:

- Ground Contact Model Parameters:

• ground_new_contact_model_up_to_speed_lateral
• ground_new_contact_model_up_to_speed_longitudinal

- Rolling Stickiness Parameter:

• ground_new_contact_model_rolling_stickyness

- Weathervane Tuning Parameters:

• ground_new_contact_model_weathervane_effect
• ground_new_contact_model_weathervane_damping

These combined can help developers and courageous users willing to edit the "flight_dynamics.cfg" fine tune their aircraft to better cope with the limitations of the ground physics in MSFS 2020, which I believe will have a big revamp in MSFS 2024...

It's actually better (regarding weathervane while in contact with ground) than the solution of creating a fake X-wind component up to a given speed during ground operations, which was the workaround introduced some 2 years ago.

I believe the default C172 G1000 which has these parameters in it's CFG behaves acceptably. It's not as good as the feel of even the default C172 in XP, but not bad and surely better than it was....

OFC aircraft like the SR22 that IRL really require proper techniques to handle with crosswind while taxiing and taking off, because of the "daisy" nose wheel are still poorly modeled in MSFS 2020 compared, for instance, with XP... I just hope 2024 will make details like these much more realistic...

Edited March 2, 20242 yr by jcomm