19 hours ago, lwt1971 said:

The topic of flight dynamics has been discussed a lot here over the past few years, and as always the usual suspects will come around here trying to push the narrative that MSFS does not enable good flight dynamics..

It almost sounds like some get very easily triggered by statements contradicting their bias. And those suspects you mention are actually some professional pilots (like BB711) who got involved with addon-developpers (Fenix etc) and explained how the devs struggled with MSFS‘s flightmodel, that still has issues. It‘s not a big surprise that PMDG themselves complained pubicly about MSFS inacurate atmosphere-modelling (impacting the flight behaviour). The fact that the PMDG has a pretty decent flightmodel is because of hacks they had to do, to compensate for the bad base FM. Don‘t you wonder why Fenix needed 1+ year to have an accurate engine-model?

So in a nutshell: MSFS2024 should be better in that. MSFS2020 is clearly lacking, even if it‘s hard to swallow for some die-hard fans.

1 hour ago, Franz007 said:

So in a nutshell: MSFS2024 should be better in that. MSFS2020 is clearly lacking, even if it‘s hard to swallow for some die-hard fans.

In a nutshell: It's amazing how you continuously miss the point that the 4-5 people continue to make to you across multiple forum posts and other social platforms (At this point I suspect it's done purposely, cause I refuse to believe someone can continously be this obtuse without purposely aiming to entice division in this community). However, like everytime you make a post, you continue to be obtuse on a very simple concept or willingly choose to ignore rational comments and prefer to just conclude with `die-hard fans are triggered`. While you and everyone else can see that that's clearly not the case.

Are you not tired? Or do you find it entertaining?

1 hour ago, Franz007 said:

It almost sounds like some get very easily triggered by statements contradicting their bias.

Oh the irony 🙂
 

1 hour ago, Franz007 said:

The fact that the PMDG has a pretty decent flightmodel is because of hacks they had to do, to compensate for the bad base FM.  Don‘t you wonder why Fenix needed 1+ year to have an accurate engine-model?

So you have insights into PMDG's development and "hacks" they've done? They've spoken about adjusting their FM for MSFS's turbulence modelling prior to MS/Asobo fixing that up and allowing for multiple user settings, but where have they said their FM has the various hacks you make it sound like it has "to compensate for the bad base FM"?

And as with most high fidelity aircraft developers for various multiple sim platforms, Fenix customize or do their own systems code such as their own engine model (and with V2 B1 and B2 they weren't just working on engine model code but also other areas including visual fidelity such as rebuilt external model/texturing, EFB, tuning their FM, support for new engine types, etc.. all that work done in the huge changelog https://msfsaddons.com/2024/02/27/fenix-simulations-releasing-airbus-a320-block-2-update-within-hours/ at the level of detail Fenix likes to do takes guess what, time). 

Oh wait, let's hear what Aamir himself of Fenix had to say about all this: https://www.avsim.com/forums/topic/636158-accusim-2-level-of-flight-dynamics-in-msfs-2024/page/4/?tab=comments#comment-4990988

This thread is hilarious. People complaining about a £59.99 piece of home entertainment software (MSFS) not having incredible globalised flight modelling when even £30m+ level-D sims, specific to type, built from real aircraft test data, don't feel like the real thing. A2A had to go external in places to build it to their standards, which is understandable, because they're brilliant and build a brilliant product. What I don't get is people taking that and spinning it into "Asobo sucks!", yeesh. We had to go external on our engines and a portion of our flight model too, in this next update. It doesn't mean Asobo sucks. It means we, as developers, have specific needs and requirements from our product that we want to see - and that we can go build it ourselves. I don't think anyone railing on Asobo understands what a monumental task it is to have an FDE that is just bang on perfect for every single type of aircraft out there - including helicopters, gliders, etc, out of the box by default, and globalised. Insanity. 

p.s if anyone manages to do the above, perfect globalised modelling, and it's capable of running on anything less than a super-computer in real time, you're probably sat on a few billion dollars in training contracts - forget the piddly consumer market 🙂

Well gee, I concur with Aamir 🙂 And MSFS as a platform provides various tools in the toolsbox, and didn't block Fenix from what they wanted to do 🤷‍♂️ .. Re: engine simulation, would add that all/most high fidelity aircraft out there, for any sim platform, are not using using default systems like engine models as-is.. customization or full overriding is the norm.
 

1 hour ago, Franz007 said:

So in a nutshell: MSFS2024 should be better in that. MSFS2020 is clearly lacking, even if it‘s hard to swallow for some die-hard fans.

Even if it's hard to swallow for some die-hard fans of other sims, MSFS is not "clearly lacking" like their narratives portray it to be.
 

Edited April 8, 20242 yr by lwt1971

1 hour ago, Franz007 said:

explained how the devs struggled with MSFS‘s flightmodel

A lot of devs struggle with flight models across all sims, that's the downfall of a general purpose FDE, sooner or later you need to externalise sub-sections of a FDE to suit your needs. You KNOW this because Aamir made a comment about it in a topic you were involved in. Again being obtuse.

1 hour ago, Franz007 said:

The fact that the PMDG has a pretty decent flightmodel is because of hacks they had to do, to compensate for the bad base FM

I have good intention that quite frankly have no idea what you're talking about. What you call "hack", is quite common in the development world as general purpose FDEs do not suit extentuating circumstances. Various devs do this including Just Flight, externalising subsections to WASM. You ALSO know this as it's been explained to you in another forum post.

You can call me biased here, but there's many commendations to FBW's FM characteristics and that is entirely using MSFS's FDE with no externalisation or "hacks" as you speak of. So what exactly are you trying to say here? PMDG isn't the only dev in this space and using them as an example to push a point doesn't help when various other devs who are handling things just fine. You KNOW this as-well from past forum posts.

1 hour ago, Franz007 said:

Don‘t you wonder why Fenix needed 1+ year to have an accurate engine-model

An engine model and a flight model are two seperate things, what point are you trying to make here? I can also guarantee that you KNOW this difference too.

This is exhausting and annoying. You know a lot of these points already and It seems you only post misinformation to spread division amongst the community to agitate pointless conversation over and over again.

2 hours ago, Lucky38i said:

You can call me biased here, but there's many commendations to FBW's FM characteristics and that is entirely using MSFS's FDE with no externalisation or "hacks" as you speak of.

Yup, I've seen many people saying that the FBW's fm is very good with some saying it's even better than that of the Fenix (not trying to start anything with that one lol just what I've heard). What are your thought on 2020's CFD simulation and is it something you guys think you could use in the future?

 

3 hours ago, lwt1971 said:

Even if it's hard to swallow for some die-hard fans of other sims, MSFS is not "clearly lacking" like their narratives portray it to be.

Absolutely. The sim does indeed have a few inherent limitations that devs have to work around but it definitely isn't the horror show that some claim it to be. There are currently signs that 2024 could come out with the best FM of the bunch and if that is the case, I am really looking forward to what some of those usual suspects will have to say. I certainly hope they won't try to say some other aspect of flight simming will then be the most important. Interesting times ahead lol.

3 hours ago, lwt1971 said:

Even if it's hard to swallow for some die-hard fans of other sims, MSFS is not "clearly lacking" like their narratives portray it to be.

You can have all the opinions you want, it doesn't change the facts.

21 minutes ago, Krakin said:

What are your thought on 2020's CFD simulation and is it something you guys think you could use in the future?

From the guys that work on the FM it looks as though CFD can have it's place in making the aircraft feel more alive in extenuating circumstances but it's pretty difficult to get good results with how complex and finely tuned our current FM is. A LOT of work was put into the current FM to get it to the current point of where it is, especially so that the results it produces are by the numbers with respect to it's real world counterpart. So I don't think the discussion is entirely closed off, just not being looked at too closely atm. As for the A380 I'm not entirely sure so it'd be unfair for me to comment on.

I do apologise for my ill-informed response as I don't really delve in that area much, if you're comfortable you're better off getting a response from some members of the discord like aguther, tracernz and Davy just to name a few.

33 minutes ago, Krakin said:

The sim does indeed have a few inherent limitations that devs have to work around

And that's what i was refering to. But some prefer to deny it; at least you seem to have a realistic view on that.

Edited April 8, 20242 yr by Franz007

What discussion again. Nobody is saying MSFS is perfect. I have the impression some would be happy if Microsoft stops or fails. And that would be really a pity, it is the best thing that happened to our hobby for decades.

Edited April 8, 20242 yr by urthgental

20 minutes ago, Lucky38i said:

I do apologise for my ill-informed response as I don't really delve in that area much

Oh no I actually really appreciate your honesty and what you have said makes a lot of sense. I think your explanation is echoed by the likes of Fenix and PMDG in terms of the reluctance to throw out a ton of work in order to take up something else.

19 minutes ago, Franz007 said:

And that's what i was refering to. But some prefer to deny it; at least you seem to have a realistic view on that.

I don't think anyone in the thread is really denying it. Most of the people in here saw MS' FSExpo keynote presentation where they outlined the limitations 2024 will be doing away with and we've discussed it in here and we know it is what holds the CFD back (wing type, proper fuselage definition etc). I think what they're pushing back against is how severe those limitations are made to seem. They do not make the FM trash or worlds apart from what is offered in other sims.

Edited April 8, 20242 yr by Krakin

1 hour ago, Franz007 said:

You can have all the opinions you want, it doesn't change the facts.

You seem to be confusing and conflating your own opinions as facts, though I have to wonder like Lucky38i of FBW above how obtuse one really has to be pushing this narrative repeatedly. Nobody is saying MSFS is perfect, yet it is not a "fact" that MSFS is "clearly lacking". As the actual experts on sim aircraft, i.e. the developers of aircraft like Fenix/FBW/others have repeatedly said on these forums and in this thread (try reading what they actually say), the MSFS *generalized* FDE caters to various and widely varying types of aircraft and then allows the aircraft devs to extend, customize, and/or override as they wish.

One well-known problem area in the FDE was ground-handling and the ground<->air transition modelling, and at least ground handling has been finally addressed in SU15 (with fuller rework coming in v2024). I've mentioned the other sore point in the FDE's SDK especially from an aircraft development perspective which is the ability to more finely define aircraft surfaces and geometry in order to take better advantage of something like the sim's CFD tech more easily (also being addressed in v2024). Apart from these, competent aircraft devs have been able to deliver superb flight models for their aircraft either fully using the base FM, customizing/overriding parts of it, or fully overriding it (as Aamir and Luck38i say above).. such is the flexibility the sim platform allows. And no, they're not struggling or going thru hoops or doing "hacks" as *some* would desperately like to make it seem.
 

Edited April 8, 20242 yr by lwt1971

1 hour ago, Krakin said:

Yup, I've seen many people saying that the FBW's fm is very good with some saying it's even better than that of the Fenix (not trying to start anything with that one lol just what I've heard). What are your thought on 2020's CFD simulation and is it something you guys think you could use in the future?

Related to your question Krakin, note what simbol (Raul) of FSReborn had to say when he gave a nice detailed account of his experience in developing aircraft FMs using CFD: https://www.avsim.com/forums/topic/626199-is-anybody-else-excited-about-the-new-20-km-cfd-in-su11/?do=findComment&comment=4872362

Like Lucky38i says above guess it all comes down to what amount of detailed customization they've done using non-CFD (additionally also the likes of PMDG/Fenix/etc) vs looking into CFD. Fenix started their development before CFD came along I believe (or maybe they chose the non-CFD route to best fit their development/design), and PMDG ported their existing codebase so didn't shift over to CFD. But aircraft devs building FMs currently from the ground up seem to be using CFD more and more.

Also, from an earlier post of mine I found these quotes from iniBuilds re: CFD:
     - https://discord.com/channels/535246634448191499/535249224254619648/1017423315771596880
       "Asobo are also making big strides in improving their physics with the new CFD simulations"
     - https://discord.com/channels/535246634448191499/1040653493914058873/1041129939333820477
       "Yeah we're super happy with it, blessed be CFD 🙏"
     - https://discord.com/channels/535246634448191499/535249224254619648/1031242737741217913
       "The flight physics in SU11 are the same as XP now you know with CFD"
 

Edited April 8, 20242 yr by lwt1971

1 hour ago, Krakin said:

They do not make the FM trash or worlds apart from what is offered in other sims.

That’s also not what I said. So we agree 😉

54 minutes ago, lwt1971 said:

You seem to be confusing and conflating your own opinions as facts

Perhaps going back to the initial discussion I had with Noel would help you getting the point. It was about which benefits sims brings for real flying. And we agreed that for a newbie in a sim, it doesn‘t matter that much how accurate the FM is, since he will quickly learn how to fly the real thing. But I added that for an already experienced pilot, the acuracy of the FM does matter when training with it. Not sure why you had to create a huge text that btw. missed the core-point of the discussion.

4 minutes ago, Franz007 said:

Perhaps going back to the initial discussion I had with Noel would help you getting the point. It was about which benefits sims brings for real flying. And we agreed that for a newbie in a sim, it doesn‘t matter that much how accurate the FM is, since he will quickly learn how to fly the real thing. But I added that for an already experienced pilot, the acuracy of the FM does matter when training with it. Not sure why you had to create a huge text that btw. missed the core-point of the discussion.

No you keep missing what everyone is saying and keep talking besides the point.. sure for an already experienced pilot the accuracy of the FM does matter, and they can get that with properly implemented aircraft in MSFS currently. Read what the actual experts have to say above, and you might just clue in.