this is how we do it at my airline on the 737. It worked the same way when I was on the 757/767.
 

On the takeoff roll, keep your wings level. Do what you need to do with your ailerons to make that happen.

 

As you rotate, anticipate needing to add a tad more rudder. 
 

during your rotation, the wind will want to push the upwind wing up and away so anticipate needing to add more aileron into the wind. 
 

During your rotation, when you have the correct rudder and aileron inputs, when the airplane lifts off the ground, it will naturally weather vane into the wind. Smoothly let out any rudder inputs you needed during the takeoff roll and rotation and do the same for the ailerons. 
 

as the airplane is leaving the ground, just fly it into the sky!
 

Edited September 4, 20241 yr by ahsmatt7

When rolling down the runway at 130 knots in a gusty crosswind, I’m not going to look down at my yoke displacement index, nor am I ever going to encourage someone do that. I’ll glance at the PFD to ensure my wings are level. We’ll also use a higher TO N1 setting, getting takeoff data that removes assumed temp, and potentially any derate if the winds are strong enough. 
 

Spoiler actuation causes a negligible performance penalty, and it’d be nearly impossible to have anything near full deflection (rendering V1 useless and reducing tail clearance). This is why using a higher thrust setting is key — minimizing your time on the ground as well as the ability to “muscle through” any gusts if needed, slightly delaying rotation, and getting a better initial climb profile. 

Edited September 4, 20241 yr by V1ROTA7E

I'm afraid we are taking this out of context; I sought that the statement is unambiguous: "1 index left/right is the start point when it exceeds 10 KTS X-WIND." When rolling down the runway, there is nothing of any to watch the yoke displacement, just watching the wings level and rudder displacement. 

Excessive wheel and rudder displacement result in significant penalties in acceleration and take-off roll (also mentioned on the BFCTM). 

We are not talking about power settings; it was specific about this flight control situation.

I understand that on a small airplane with an adequate runway available, this might not be of any concern, or just not knowing that actually there is a performance penalty, however larger or heavy equipment at maximum weights like JFK to PVG, HKG, SYD to FRA or LHR, DXB or ABU to JFK with a full boat, this is definitely an issue. 

Apparently, certain people cannot acknowledge what the aircraft manual specifies, and they feel the need to disagree and twist the words.

2 hours ago, LRBS said:

We are not talking about power settings; it was specific about this flight control situation.

Ok, this discussion isn’t about you, it’s about crosswind takeoff techniques. Using a higher power setting during takeoff in gusty conditions IS a Boeing recommended procedure.

 

2 hours ago, LRBS said:

I understand that on a small airplane with an adequate runway available, this might not be of any concern, or just not knowing that actually there is a performance penalty

Are we really plane comparing now?? Unreal. The techniques I’m talking about applied to the 747 when I flew that, the 757, 767, and 737 when I flew those. This also appears to be the case with the 777 which I’ll be flying in a few months. Our procedures come straight from Boeing. 
 

2 hours ago, LRBS said:

Apparently, certain people cannot acknowledge what the aircraft manual specifies

What are you talking about? The FCTM page that you referenced said to start with the ailerons neutral, which is what I said from the beginning by saying “you don’t pre add aileron.”

3 hours ago, LRBS said:

 

I'm afraid we are taking this out of context; I sought that the statement is unambiguous: "1 index left/right is the start point when it exceeds 10 KTS X-WIND." When rolling down the runway, there is nothing of any to watch the yoke displacement, just watching the wings level and rudder displacement. 

Excessive wheel and rudder displacement result in significant penalties in acceleration and take-off roll (also mentioned on the BFCTM). 

We are not talking about power settings; it was specific about this flight control situation.

I understand that on a small airplane with an adequate runway available, this might not be of any concern, or just not knowing that actually there is a performance penalty, however larger or heavy equipment at maximum weights like JFK to PVG, HKG, SYD to FRA or LHR, DXB or ABU to JFK with a full boat, this is definitely an issue. 

Apparently, certain people cannot acknowledge what the aircraft manual specifies, and they feel the need to disagree and twist the words.

I think it’s time to take your ball and go home. Come back and play tomorrow.

1 hour ago, ahsmatt7 said:

I think it’s time to take your ball and go home. Come back and play tomorrow.

Thank  you so much, you are such a gentlemen.

2 hours ago, V1ROTA7E said:

Ok, this discussion isn’t about you, it’s about crosswind takeoff techniques. Using a higher power setting during takeoff in gusty conditions IS a Boeing recommended procedure.

 

Are we really plane comparing now?? Unreal. The techniques I’m talking about applied to the 747 when I flew that, the 757, 767, and 737 when I flew those. This also appears to be the case with the 777 which I’ll be flying in a few months. Our procedures come straight from Boeing. 
 

What are you talking about? The FCTM page that you referenced said to start with the ailerons neutral, which is what I said from the beginning by saying “you don’t pre add aileron.”

I understand that this is not about me. This is not relevant to our current discussion.

About the 747s,  I flew the 747-SP-100-200-300-400 -8  for the last 30 years, current and qualified in the 744 since 1995 and 748 since 2005, in between 734, 757, 777 and 789. 

Again, for some unknown reason, I was not making any references to the power settings, but you keep bringing that up. Also in the info provided and highlighted there is no discussion about power settings in "Rotation and Takeoff".

Specifically on the  747s BFCTM did not mention having the control wheel centered during x-wind t.o. conditions. I don't have the other manuals but talking about the 747s there is no such thing as I can see at present or before. As you notice, if you pay close attention to the information provided (actually the info is from the BFCTM dated as of the end of the 2023) do not say  "start with the ailerons neutral", read again, please. What is that so difficult to understand? 

 

Rotation and Takeoff

Begin the takeoff roll with the control wheel approximately centered.

 

Contrary to what you strongly believe or what you did, many airlines used/use this "pre-add aileron'. Also, another 747 pilot part of this discussion flying since 1997 confirmed and used this technique.  

 

It's clear that this discussion isn't productive, and you seem more interested in arguing despite evidence to the contrary. It's time to end this unhealthy debate.

Just for some who might be unfamiliar... some big jets (e.g. the 747) use spoilers to assist the ailerons. This partly explains the performance degradation that comes with excessive aileron input, and it's one reason Boeing recommends using the minimum aileron necessary to keep the wings level during crosswind takeoffs.

 

 

10 hours ago, LRBS said:

Thank  you so much, you are such a gentlemen.

You’re welcome! I could have blasted you a lot harder. Is that what you would have preferred? 

10 hours ago, LRBS said:

I understand that this is not about me. This is not relevant to our current discussion.

About the 747s,  I flew the 747-SP-100-200-300-400 -8  for the last 30 years, current and qualified in the 744 since 1995 and 748 since 2005, in between 734, 757, 777 and 789. 

Again, for some unknown reason, I was not making any references to the power settings, but you keep bringing that up. Also in the info provided and highlighted there is no discussion about power settings in "Rotation and Takeoff".

Specifically on the  747s BFCTM did not mention having the control wheel centered during x-wind t.o. conditions. I don't have the other manuals but talking about the 747s there is no such thing as I can see at present or before. As you notice, if you pay close attention to the information provided (actually the info is from the BFCTM dated as of the end of the 2023) do not say  "start with the ailerons neutral", read again, please. What is that so difficult to understand? 

 

Rotation and Takeoff

Begin the takeoff roll with the control wheel approximately centered.

 

Contrary to what you strongly believe or what you did, many airlines used/use this "pre-add aileron'. Also, another 747 pilot part of this discussion flying since 1997 confirmed and used this technique.  

 

It's clear that this discussion isn't productive, and you seem more interested in arguing despite evidence to the contrary. It's time to end this unhealthy debate.

That other 747 pilot you quoted said the pre add procedure got changed eventually. 
 

secondly, with regards to the FCOM page you showed us, where does it say to use I unit for every 10 knots? Sounds more like a “technique” and not an actual procedure. 
 

At the end of the day, you fly the jet the way your airline tells you to. 

2 hours ago, ahsmatt7 said:

You’re welcome! I could have blasted you a lot harder. Is that what you would have preferred? 

 

 

To ensure you know, I did not contest the other pilot's statement regarding the procedure change.

 

Again, you should have read my statement carefully instead of looking for a fight. I just disagree with the statement that " You don’t “pre-add” aileron in jets,” which we actually do to a certain degree, which is also clearly mentioned on BFCTM. 

 

Yes, it does not say to use 1 unit for each 10 KTS. This is where the SOP plays its role. Each airline adjusts according to its own procedures, not techniques. We don't use/teach techniques; we use procedures.

 

And I agree with you that we fly the airplanes as the airline is approved. 

 

On a lost note, I emphasize the importance of maintaining a professional and respectful manner when expressing disagreement. Rather than resorting to unprofessional behavior such as "I could have blasted you a lot harder. Is that what you would have preferred?" It is more appropriate to communicate dissent in a respectful and constructive manner. 

Wishing you the best of luck as you enhance your interpersonal skills!

Edited September 5, 20241 yr by LRBS

21 minutes ago, LRBS said:

 

 

To ensure you know, I did not contest the other pilot's statement regarding the procedure change.

 

Again, you should have read my statement carefully instead of looking for a fight. I just disagree with the statement that " You don’t “pre-add” aileron in jets,” which we actually do to a certain degree, which is also clearly mentioned on BFCTM. 

 

Yes, it does not say to use 1 unit for each 10 KTS. This is where the SOP plays its role. Each airline adjusts according to its own procedures, not techniques. We don't use/teach techniques; we use procedures.

 

And I agree with you that we fly the airplanes as the airline is approved. 

 

On a lost note, I emphasize the importance of maintaining a professional and respectful manner when expressing disagreement. Rather than resorting to unprofessional behavior such as "I could have blasted you a lot harder. Is that what you would have preferred?" It is more appropriate to communicate dissent in a respectful and constructive manner. 

Wishing you the best of luck as you enhance your interpersonal skills!

In my defense as to why I responded the way I was the fact that you started to insinuate that some of us in this thread are intentionally non-compliant. Not outright but it sounded like you were flirting with that idea. I didn’t like that because none of us have ever flown with each other so we could never know.

As far as techniques are concerned, I believe teaching techniques which help us to stay within the confines of the SOPs are absolutely paramount. There’s nothing wrong with that because if done correctly, techniques uphold the SOP and don’t diminish it.

I was never looking for a fight. I approached this conversation as if we were at the bar on an overnight with some beers. My apologies if I was to harsh towards you. 
 

Anyways, take care. For what it’s worth, at my airline, we used to “pre add” so to speak, then a whole sale change was made and now it’s just fly the plane and do what you need to do to keep the wings level.

Despite the talking-past-each-other bickering, I'd like to thank (most of) you guys for sharing your IRL experience in here. Lots of good learning for those willing to sort the wheat from the chaff.

👍

2 minutes ago, UrgentSiesta said:

Despite the talking-past-each-other bickering, I'd like to thank (most of) you guys for sharing your IRL experience in here. Lots of good learning for those willing to sort the wheat from the chaff.

I was thinking the same. Please keep the discussion going. 

17 hours ago, LRBS said:

Again, for some unknown reason, I was not making any references to the power settings, but you keep bringing that up. 

So I’m not allowed to continue the discussion and emphasize the importance of power settings? If I was talking directly to you, I’d have quoted you. We are allowed to disagree. And I do, wholeheartedly disagree with that technique. You ever wonder why Boeing (or their lawyers) removed the 1 unit per 10 knots until 2.5 units?

 

17 hours ago, LRBS said:

 

Rotation and Takeoff

Begin the takeoff roll with the control wheel approximately centered.

Ok, so approximately 1 unit in the wrong direction is fine then? Where’s the actual line?

 

 

17 hours ago, LRBS said:

Also in the info provided and highlighted there is no discussion about power settings in "Rotation and Takeoff".

Look at the FCTM page you posted. The paragraph following the portion you highlighted literally talks about this.