15 minutes ago, V1ROTA7E said:

So I’m not allowed to continue the discussion and emphasize the importance of power settings?

I don't understand the need to argue. I thought I was clear when I mentioned "Rotation and Takeoff." I didn't mention anything about the power settings in the "Gusty Wind and Strong Crosswind Conditions" paragraph. It seems there's a misunderstanding. I didn't say that we can't disagree; in fact, that's what we're doing. That's the beauty of it. Please don't take it personally; I'm not your enemy, and I don't wish ill on anyone.

8 hours ago, LRBS said:

I don't understand the need to argue

No, quite right, thats what places like PPRUNE are for, and exactly why I don’t go there, preferring virtual flight instead.

It was me that casually mentioned the 1 unit for 10KT X-wind technique not LRBS so feel free to blame me if you want.

This was a  technique I was taught when training on the 744 by the ex classic 747 trainers, I thought it was a Boeing technique but could be wrong and it was simply company SOP.

Either way it was in use for years, I started noticing FOs not preloading for cross winds in later years and just though they were a bit slack, until I eventually read a manual again and noted the technique had changed to flying the wing and so it was me being slack for using an out of date teqnique. 

I don’t remember crashing the thing though so no harm done.

16 hours ago, LRBS said:

I didn't mention anything about the power settings in the "Gusty Wind and Strong Crosswind Conditions" paragraph. It seems there's a misunderstanding.

Good lord. I wasn’t talking to you. I was adding to the overall discussion about Crosswind Technique. 

We used to pre add some aileron before beginning the take off roll and stopped about 10 years ago I think.
 

Now we do (as the Boeing FCTM states) start wings approximately level and add just enough to keep wings level. The reason this changed I think was that people were adding too much aileron and it caused spoiler deployment creating drag and reducing tail clearance on rotation. 
 

 

This is from our FCOM, hopefully will put to bed this heated discussion. Read crosswind considerations section, please.

Normal Procedures - Takeoff

 

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

If thrust is to be set manually, smoothly advance thrust levers toward takeoff thrust. Final thrust adjustments should be made, with reference to the digital readouts, by 80 knots. Above 80 knots, no changes should be made except as required to maintain engine parameters within their limits.

 

Note: Allowing the engines to stabilize longer than approximately two seconds before advancing to takeoff thrust may adversely affect takeoff distance.

The PM shall monitor engine instruments and airspeed indications during the takeoff roll and announce any abnormalities. The PM shall announce passing 80 knots and the PF should verify that his airspeed indicator is in agreement. The PM shall verify that takeoff thrust has been set and the autothrottle hold mode (HOLD) is engaged. 

 

Light forward pressure (no further forward than the tiller) is held on the control column, then gradually released to neutral by V1. Keep the airplane on centerline with rudder pedal steering and rudder. The rudder becomes effective between 40 and 60 knots. 

 

After takeoff thrust is set, the Captain's hand shall remain on the thrust levers until V1 is called. The Captain's hand must be removed from the thrust levers at the V1 call to reinforce the go decision and to help prevent an inadvertent, instinctive action to reject the takeoff above V1. Normally, neither pilot’s hand should be on the thrust levers between V1 and gear-up callouts.

 

Standing Takeoff

 

A standing takeoff is accomplished by first advancing the Thrust Levers to the value shown in the Takeoff Duties table then releasing the brakes. Next, push TO/GA switch to advance the thrust levers to takeoff thrust, or manually advance the thrust levers to takeoff thrust.

 

Warning ! Do not advance the thrust levers to takeoff thrust before releasing the brakes.

 

 

Crosswind Considerations

 

Begin the takeoff roll with the control wheel approximately centered, +1/-1 unit displacement on the control wheel is recommended for crosswind components exceeding 10 KTS. Gradually increase control wheel displacement into the wind throughout the takeoff roll, but only enough to maintain wings level.

 

Note: Excessive control wheel displacement during rotation and liftoff increases spoiler deployment. As spoiler deployment increases, drag increases and lift is reduced which results in reduced tail clearance, a longer takeoff roll, and slower airplane acceleration.

At liftoff, the airplane is in a sideslip with crossed controls. A slow, smooth recovery from this sideslip is accomplished by slowly neutralizing the control wheel and rudder pedals after liftoff.

 

 

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

NP.35.2                                                                                                       747-400/-8 FCOM                                                                          01 MAY 24

 

Edited September 6, 20241 yr by LRBS

Is that different as it a 747 though? 
 

My 777/787 FCTM says

 

”

Rotation and Takeoff

Begin the takeoff roll with the control wheel approximately centered. Throughout the takeoff roll, gradually increase control wheel displacement into the wind only enough to maintain approximately wings level.

Note: Excessive control wheel displacement during rotation and liftoff increases spoiler deployment. As spoiler deployment increases, drag increases and lift is reduced which results in reduced tail clearance, a longer takeoff roll, and slower airplane acceleration.

At liftoff, the airplane is in a sideslip with crossed controls. A slow, smooth recovery from this sideslip is accomplished by slowly neutralizing the control wheel and rudder pedals after liftoff.”

The same Boeing type fctms do vary between operators so perhaps it’s that also.

 

 

1 hour ago, g-liner said:

Is that different as it a 747 though? 
 

My 777/787 FCTM says

 

”

Rotation and Takeoff

Begin the takeoff roll with the control wheel approximately centered. Throughout the takeoff roll, gradually increase control wheel displacement into the wind only enough to maintain approximately wings level.

Note: Excessive control wheel displacement during rotation and liftoff increases spoiler deployment. As spoiler deployment increases, drag increases and lift is reduced which results in reduced tail clearance, a longer takeoff roll, and slower airplane acceleration.

At liftoff, the airplane is in a sideslip with crossed controls. A slow, smooth recovery from this sideslip is accomplished by slowly neutralizing the control wheel and rudder pedals after liftoff.”

One is from BFCTM and the last one is from our FCOM. 

Apparently, both say the same thing about the control wheel as not to be centered during crosswind, and one is just an SOP with a recommendation. It is obvious that there is some control wheel displacement due to the wind, otherwise, they wouldn't mention at all  "Begin the takeoff roll with the control wheel approximately centered".  

I believe this statement applies to all Boeings, including 777/787 BFCTM, unless the FCOM/SOP introduces new data for each airline. The underlying principles remain consistent.

I didn't save all the other books to be able to cross-reference.

Edited September 6, 20241 yr by LRBS

On 9/6/2024 at 5:55 AM, jon b said:

I don’t remember crashing the thing though so no harm done.

Good to know! 😅

There's not really a need to over complicate this; we're talking about a jet, not a Cub or something.  Jets are easy to fly. 

In reality - aileron to keep the wings level, and rudder to stay on centerline.  Done.

In MSFS with its exaggerated crosswind effect - some aileron into the wind, enough to allow you to maintain directional control with rudder input. 

Edited September 8, 20241 yr by Stearmandriver

16 hours ago, Stearmandriver said:

In MSFS with its exaggerated crosswind effect

The sims exaggerated ground effect of some aircraft affects your technique, too.  The CJ4 is glued to the runway many times - long after VR - despite being properly configured for TO.  Almost as if it no wing lift whatsoever, until you go then hurdling into the sky at 35 degrees pitch up.

 

5 hours ago, jon b said:

 

I clearly see aileron flaperon into the wind!

1 hour ago, sd_flyer said:

clearly see aileron flaperon into the wind!

You were right first time, it’s just ailerons on those things🙂

You can also see the spoiler deployment on the left side as well that we we’re talking about.

Once you put in a certain amount of aileron the spoilers start coming up to assist roll.

It just popped up on my YouTube page as a suggestion, I thought it might be of interest to this discussion.

Edited September 16, 20241 yr by jon b