On 11/11/2024 at 10:41 PM, Virtual-Chris said:

Too bad this thread has gone off the rails… who cares whether I or you or the other guy considers this a simulator or a game.

Can we at least all agree that the fact that MS/Asobo has completely ignored ATC for the last four years is very sad (and maybe even frustrating as it is for me)?

Im voting with my wallet. I’m not buying MS2024 until they have addressed some of the ATC issues  

 

I see your point. I am not sure why they left it out of focus for this long. Probably too many bugs/issues up until SU15 and neglected the time for it.

Yes, these threads, depending on who replies in them, can be derailed into like 3 different topics. But please, don't mention that at all otherwise its a personal attack on someone who is guilty of it.

1 hour ago, Abriael said:

It doesn't depend on how you use a flight simulator. Your personal use of a flight simulator does not change what it IS. It just changes what you use it for.

Someone who's playing chess is playing a game regardless of whether they do it for pure entertainment or as part of studies on strategy and tactics. That doesn't change Chess' nature as a game. 

Home flight simulators are games. They have always been. Some people just throw around excuses not to admit that they're gamers, like that was something to be ashamed of.  😂

Again. I provided accepted definitions for both simulators and for games, which are not the same thing at all.  Yet you insist that any "Home" flight simulator is a game, yet your entire agreement seems to be based on nothing more than your bias opinion.

Does a "Home" flight simulator become a "Real" flight simulator if it is moved into a classroom, where it is used to aid flight instruction?  If so, then how it is used does indeed define what it is.

Here are the definitions again (worded slightly differently and expanded a bit for clarity):
GAME: An activity providing entertainment or amusement (fun); a pastime: party games; word games (play), with rules, a goal, winning, competition, etc..
SIMULATION: Representation of the operation or features of one process or system through the use of another: computer simulation of an in-flight emergency.

Simulations are not, in and of themselves, games, as they need all the additional gaming elements in order to meet the definition of what a game is.

As I explained in my first reply, MSFS is only a portion of what makes up a flight simulator . . . it is the software part of the simulator (and often not the only software part). So MSFS is a computer program, period.  How one uses it does indeed define what it is to the user, but it is still a computer program.

For example: A sheet of plywood doesn't stop being a piece of plywood, but it can become part of a roof or it can became part of a wall, depending on how it is used.

BTW: I am NOT "afraid to admit" that I'm a gamer.  I created one of the first Girl Game RPG websites and ran an international gaming forum for many years. I also created some of the most popular MODS for Fallout 3 and Fallout NV.  My first experience with flight sims was watching my older brother run Flight Simulator 4.0. I also own X-Plane (since version 9) and most of the DCS helicopters.  I do know the difference between the two and use them very differently. My games allow me to enter fantasy worlds, where my fight sims allow me to experience simulated aircraft flight on a simulated Earth (its digital twin). 

You are free to think of MSFS as a game, as that seems to be important to you.  And it really doesn't matter to me. But please stop insisting that I should follow your made up definition of what it is.

 

 

 

51 minutes ago, Arwen said:

You are free to think of MSFS as a game, as that seems to be important to you.  And it really doesn't matter to me. But please stop insisting that I should follow your made up definition of what it is.

You are free to define the moon as a ping pong ball if you care, but that doesn't change its nature as a satellite of Earth. I didn't insist that you should do anything. As a matter of fact, I didn't even address you first. You decided to address me on your own initiative when I dared to say "Every flight simulator that you use at home is indeed a game" to someone else, so do me the favor not to  try to misrepresent our conversation as me trying to impose something on you. You came to me to contest my position that was a simple response to someone disparagingly defining MSFS as a "flying game" because ATC doesn't satisfy them, which is ridiculous and childish use of the word "game" as an insult. 

A home flight simulator moved to a classroom doesn't change its nature. It's still a product born as a game and just used for a different purpose. The use of games in instruction and training is not at all new nor unique to flight simulators and doesn't change their nature.  Once again, the example of chess is among the most basic ones.

Going deeper into it, professional officers regularly use tabletop wargames to simulate real battle scenarios with real geopolitical consequences. That doesn't change their basic nature as games. Games have been used to simulate and to train for millennia before the first computer was invented. They are still games. And boy, these generals with a gazillion stars on their epaulets using these games are less afraid to call them games than some flight simmers are. 😂

When you "experience simulated aircraft flight on a simulated Earth" you're not accruing flight hours for your PPL. You're entertaining yourself -> Hence, you're playing a game. That's the case whether it's MSFS, X-Plane, DCS, or whatever. All of them are entertainment products first and foremost that can be used in different scenarios just like you can use chess to teach other things, without changing the fact that chess is a game. 

But again, call it whatever you want, if it makes you feel better about it. Your choice of wording has no bearing on what this and other similar software is. 

@Sonosusto as I said, I'm not particularly interested in your opinion of me, your personal attacks, or your off-topic posts written with the sole purpose of attacking me. Feel free to do them on your own time. Don't waste mine. 

I'll just address one point since it flew over your head while you were too busy scrambling to launch your ad-hominem invectives. 

Quote

 See the first points. Let it be. Some want certain ATC, some don't.

I explained what I expect from AI traffic because someone explicitly asked me why non-real-time AI traffic was a deal-breaker for me in Beyond ATC. You may want to read a whole conversation before starting to ram your fingers on the keyboard. It helps.

 

Edited November 14, 20241 yr by Abriael

43 minutes ago, Arwen said:

Again. I provided accepted definitions for both simulators and for games, which are not the same thing at all.  Yet you insist that any "Home" flight simulator is a game, yet your entire agreement seems to be based on nothing more than your bias opinion.

Does a "Home" flight simulator become a "Real" flight simulator if it is moved into a classroom, where it is used to aid flight instruction?  If so, then how it is used does indeed define what it is.

Here are the definitions again (worded slightly differently and expanded a bit for clarity):
GAME: An activity providing entertainment or amusement (fun); a pastime: party games; word games (play), with rules, a goal, winning, competition, etc..
SIMULATION: Representation of the operation or features of one process or system through the use of another: computer simulation of an in-flight emergency.

Simulations are not, in and of themselves, games, as they need all the additional gaming elements in order to meet the definition of what a game is.

As I explained in my first reply, MSFS is only a portion of what makes up a flight simulator . . . it is the software part of the simulator (and often not the only software part). So MSFS is a computer program, period.  How one uses it does indeed define what it is to the user, but it is still a computer program.

For example: A sheet of plywood doesn't stop being a piece of plywood, but it can become part of a roof or it can became part of a wall, depending on how it is used.

BTW: I am NOT "afraid to admit" that I'm a gamer.  I created one of the first Girl Game RPG websites and ran an international gaming forum for many years. I also created some of the most popular MODS for Fallout 3 and Fallout NV.  My first experience with flight sims was watching my older brother run Flight Simulator 4.0. I also own X-Plane (since version 9) and most of the DCS helicopters.  I do know the difference between the two and use them very differently. My games allow me to enter fantasy worlds, where my fight sims allow me to experience simulated aircraft flight on a simulated Earth (its digital twin). 

You are free to think of MSFS as a game, as that seems to be important to you.  And it really doesn't matter to me. But please stop insisting that I should follow your made up definition of what it is.

 

 

 

YOU created mods for these games?!?! That is truly amazing. Anyone dealing with Bethesda stuff has my good graces. Fallout 4 is still my favorite.

Really appreciate your insight on this.

OP Thread Topic was "ATC in 2024" Lets keep it this way.

I find ATC, at least the one I use, to really keep the immersion going. Flying in simulators (yes the real kind) back in day was pretty cool and all but being able to enjoy much of that in your own home is amazing. Sounds, scenery, seeing other planes around you (or friends) and also...being able to talk to ATC in some capicity. Vatsim isn't for everyone, different times, schedules so offline ATC is better for me. Not for everyone but for me.

See the point there? For me. My game, sim, computer etc. Mine.

Being able to chat with ATC for a flight following, telling me to avoid upcoming traffic, vectors for an approach, change of alt due traffic, changing to ILS or switching runway due to weather change, being advised to go around because a plane went on the taxiway etc.

All good stuff here.

 

Ignore button really is magic 🙂 

On 11/12/2024 at 7:41 AM, Virtual-Chris said:

Can we at least all agree that the fact that MS/Asobo has completely ignored ATC for the last four years is very sad (and maybe even frustrating as it is for me)?

As a matter of fact, no we can't, considering that they have made incremental improvements to ATC in several updates, (for instance Sim Update 14 that isn't even that long ago). The fact that they have not made progress fulfilling your lofty personal requirements does not in any shape or form equate to "completely ignoring ATC." 

All developers have limited resources. If they subtracted resources from something else to improve ATC further, we'd have someone else complaining that they "completely ignored" something because hyperbole seems to be the name of the game. 

As @abrams_tank correctly mentioned, there are third-party alternatives that provide AI ATC as good as it has ever been in a simulator and probably as good or close to as good as it's possible with the current state of generative AI. I have a feeling that people are starting to take Microsoft's attempt to provide a relatively complete package a bit too much for granted, demanding that they pretty much replace every aspect of simulation that would usually be provided by third-party developers with top-notch default solutions. 

If that's what you want, you'll simply have to wait until they get around to doing it with the resources that they have. But that's certainly not a problem on Microsoft's side. They are already providing the most complete simulation package on the market out of the box, and not by a small margin. 

Edited November 14, 20241 yr by Abriael

The ATC part of BeyondATC worked in the TechAlpha with no updates made to make it specifically work in the Alpha.

So I imagine it won't take much to update that part of it.

But I wonder how they're going to generate an airport map with all the airports being in the cloud instead of local.

Which also makes me wonder how the heck is LittleNavMap going to work? Can't exactly read airports not physically on your harddrive.

Edited November 14, 20241 yr by Tuskin38

11 minutes ago, Tuskin38 said:

But I wonder how they're going to generate an airport map with all the airports being in the cloud instead of local.

Hmm, never thought of that. I asked over at the FSHud discord, hopefully the dev will answer. 

12 minutes ago, Tuskin38 said:

The ATC part of BeyondATC worked in the TechAlpha with no updates made to make it specifically work in the Alpha.

That's promising. 

18 minutes ago, Tuskin38 said:

But I wonder how they're going to generate an airport map with all the airports being in the cloud instead of local.

The airport, like everything else, will still be downloaded on your PC when you use it. You're just not downloading what you don't use, but everything that you do use will end up on your PC, temporarily or not depending on settings.  

Edited November 14, 20241 yr by Abriael

1 hour ago, Sonosusto said:

YOU created mods for these games?!?! That is truly amazing. Anyone dealing with Bethesda stuff has my good graces. Fallout 4 is still my favorite.

Really appreciate your insight on this.

Off Topic Part: Bethesda is one of my favorite developers. My first RPG was Morrowind, which was the inspiration for creating a gaming website and forum.  Bethesda sent me a large box of free Morrowind gear in appreciation of my contributions to the community (and as a get well gift while I was recovering from a very difficult operation). This included the boxed Collector's Edition and a copy of BloodMoon DLC (which was signed by all of the programming team).  I had never done any modding before, but I wanted to make the game better, so I taught myself enough to get stated. Google "Arwen's Realism Tweaks" and you should find plenty about my Fallout Moods.

Now back to the topic of this thread:  I've been very impressed with the improvements that BeyondATC has accomplished so far. It still has some issues, but it works way better than the default ATC.  I'm hoping that Microsoft will integrate it (or something like it) into MSFS, or perhaps they are working on their on improvements.  Even if we're still stuck with the not-so-good default ATC for a while, I'm still really looking forward to MSFS 2024.  I fly mainly small GA (and helicopters) and many of the improvements will be most appreciated to those of us flying low and slow.

 

Edited November 14, 20241 yr by Arwen

4 minutes ago, Arwen said:

Bethesda is one of my favorite developers.

The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion is one of the few RPG games that I've completed. Absolutely loved it, and the theme music still gives me goosebumps! 

 

45 minutes ago, Abriael said:

The airport, like everything else, will still be downloaded on your PC when you use it. You're just not downloading what you don't use, but everything that you do use will end up on your PC, temporarily or not depending on settings.  

Yes, but LNM doesn't read the airport files on the fly, you need to generate the database everytime an airport it added/updated. So if you don't have it downloaded/streamed already you wouldn't be able to do any planning.

3 minutes ago, Tuskin38 said:

Yes, but LNM doesn't read the airport files on the fly, you need to generate the database everytime an airport it added/updated. So if you don't have it downloaded/streamed already you wouldn't be able to do any planning.

I suppose they'll simply require you to download the airport pre-flight. The simulator allows for that, so it shouldn't be a problem. 

7 hours ago, Abriael said:

As a matter of fact, no we can't, considering that they have made incremental improvements to ATC in several updates, (for instance Sim Update 14 that isn't even that long ago). The fact that they have not made progress fulfilling your lofty personal requirements does not in any shape or form equate to "completely ignoring ATC." 

All developers have limited resources. If they subtracted resources from something else to improve ATC further, we'd have someone else complaining that they "completely ignored" something because hyperbole seems to be the name of the game. 

As @abrams_tank correctly mentioned, there are third-party alternatives that provide AI ATC as good as it has ever been in a simulator and probably as good or close to as good as it's possible with the current state of generative AI. I have a feeling that people are starting to take Microsoft's attempt to provide a relatively complete package a bit too much for granted, demanding that they pretty much replace every aspect of simulation that would usually be provided by third-party developers with top-notch default solutions. 

If that's what you want, you'll simply have to wait until they get around to doing it with the resources that they have. But that's certainly not a problem on Microsoft's side. They are already providing the most complete simulation package on the market out of the box, and not by a small margin. 

I asked in the original post, if any enhancements had been made to ATC in the last year that I’ve been away, and were now on page 6 and no one has mentioned anything. Please share. Have they addressed some of the key issues?

ps.. not sure what I’ve done to deserve such a snarky response. I’m sorry if I’ve offended you or anyone else. I’m just not happy with MS priorities. We can agree to disagree on that. Peace!

Edited November 14, 20241 yr by Virtual-Chris