3 hours ago, psolk said:

Yep, well aware but thank you in case I wasn't!  I never assume to know it all.

 

No problem - to be honest this wasn't actually addressed at you, but I thought since BATC and SayIntentions were getting the lion's share of the posts I'd highlight a significant feature recently added.

2 hours ago, Abriael said:

Home simulators are not "devices." 

Also, "dictionary" arguments tend to be used disingenuously because people just use the definition that fits their arguments excluding all others.

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/video-game

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/game

video game: a game in which the player controls moving pictures on a screen by pressing buttons

and game: an entertaining activity or sport, especially one played by children, or the equipment needed for such an activity:

Home flight simulators are video games. They have been since the very beginning of the genre and they have never not been games. 

It's hilarious that you don't usually get people trying to argue that they aren't gaming in other simulation genres. Only some flight simulation enthusiasts try so hard to persuade others and themselves that they're not doing it for fun but for some sort of absolutely serious and 100% professional reason. 🤣

I used the only applicable definition of the noun for each term, you never even provided any definition for Simulator, but just used your own bias to force all simulators into a type of video game.

MSFS (and other flight sims) are software that we install on our devices (in my case a computer) to simulate flying an aircraft.  Also my HOTAS and pedals are additional hardware that are part of my flight sim. A flight simulator is not just the software, but also the hardware used in the sim.  Is the software that is installed in a commercial flight sim a "game"?  What separates a "Home Flight Simulator" from any other simulator?  Both "enables the operator to reproduce or represent" flying an aircraft.

As I stated in my previous reply, "I think it really depends on how you use a flight sim." If you use it as a game, then it is a game for you. But if someone uses it as a simulator, then it is a simulator for them.

Edited November 11, 20241 yr by Arwen

Too bad this thread has gone off the rails… who cares whether I or you or the other guy considers this a simulator or a game.

Can we at least all agree that the fact that MS/Asobo has completely ignored ATC for the last four years is very sad (and maybe even frustrating as it is for me)?

Im voting with my wallet. I’m not buying MS2024 until they have addressed some of the ATC issues  

 

Edited November 12, 20241 yr by Virtual-Chris

On 11/10/2024 at 10:59 AM, Abriael said:

Because part of simulating aircraft operations includes simulating the world in a dynamic, ever-changing state. If I simulate the same flight today and tomorrow, I should not find myself in exactly the same situation. 

Beyond ATC averages out data over time, which flattens that dynamism considerably and creates big inconsistencies with reality (for instance, you'll see seasonal flights out of season because the schedule has not updated), you won't have to deal with delayed flights or traffic spikes due to external factors, etcetera.

When I see a flight departing, I like to know that same flight is departing in real life, at the same time. Beyond ATC's method, while it has some merits, does not achieve that.

Real-time traffic and weather for me represent the "today" and future of flight simulation. Having averaged out periodic data isn't that different from using schedules (the only big difference is that the schedule is generated automatically and not compiled and inserted by hand, which is not a relevant difference for me as a user), and that's very much the "yesterday" of traffic in flight simulation for me, which I am not keen to go back to. 

More power to those who enjoy it, but it's just not for me. 

The ideal solution would be for MSFS to partner with both FlightAware and FlightRadar24, and integrate the data they get from both for a much deeper dataset that has better worldwide coverage. The deficiency in the coverage of traffic in MSFS is entirely due to the deficiencies of FlightAware's data. That's what I've been suggesting for a long time, and I still have hope that it'll happen at some point. 

Interesting. Dynamic, ever-changing, real world planes departing next to you. But not yesterday's? Because that's simply the worst.

Maybe you should just fly real planes. This ATC discussion thread is tirelessly overdone. There are ton of them available. Pilot2ATC is an excellent choice, new UI. Great for IFR and VFR and flight following. Recognizes traffic. etc etc. But who cares? Everyone has something they like.

You see....my point is....you want literally everything but all most of want to do is just fly fake planes in the virtual skies. You just simply argue...for....heck, none of us even know at this point.

Edited November 12, 20241 yr by Sonosusto

On 11/10/2024 at 6:12 PM, Abriael said:

Every flight simulator that you use at home is indeed a game, just like every racing simulator you use at home is a game. Every farming simulator. Every train simulator. Every forklift simulator, etcetera. Not being reality is irrelevant. The home use is relevant. 

 

What are we babbling about now?

Not sure really where you're going with all this.

You often take threads and derail them into oblivion. 

 

Edited November 12, 20241 yr by Sonosusto

Anyway, to bring this BACK on topic.

Everyone has their "own" little version they use. Honestly, who cares? Its been debated ad nauseam around here. Some have flip-flopped what they like/don't like so many times its hard to keep track of. I've heard a few argue in favor of a particular app for weeks....weeks... then all of sudden, completely change their minds. Then back again.

Example: Absolute must that ATC has to control traffic?  If it doesn't, should it function on every other occasion? Having a UI you don't understand because you tried it for 10 minutes and gave up? Voices don't sound perfect? Did it vector you into the mountain but it sounds really, really good? Controls traffic but doesn't function well with other things?

Sheesh. At this point we need a diagram showing the differences. All of them have their quirks.

 

It all depends on the use you give to it...

Applies to the ATC in sim, and to the sim itself...

The first time I used a flight simulator, and soon after the first version of MS Flight Simulator, it was surely as a game, with the objective being landing the Cessna or the Lear at Meigs 🙂

Default ATC leaves a lot to be desired in MSFS 2020, and as I can get from this thread, will probably not get much better than that in 2024, so all I plan to do is wait for FSHUD and BATC to get ready for 2024...

I would really like to be able to run an ATC simulation for real trainning though, with proper / localized / realistic interactions that could help me stay proficient in ATC, even though I don't do much of it IRL ... 

"London Control" comes to my mind as a semi-professional ATC simulation for those willing to get what is probably the most realistic desktop simulation of an ATC center, so, not from the pilot perspective, but still....

I'd love to have the professionalism / realism of "London Control" in a desktop flight simulation 🙂

And btw, are this images from a game or from a flight simulator: 

WorldFlight 2024 Highlights! Amazing experience and so much fun :D

 

Edited November 12, 20241 yr by jcomm

57 minutes ago, Virtual-Chris said:

Too bad this thread has gone off the rails… who cares whether I or you or the other guy considers this a simulator or a game.

Can we at least all agree that the fact that MS/Asobo has completely ignored ATC for the last four years is very sad (and maybe even frustrating as it is for me)?

Im voting with my wallet. I’m not buying MS2024 until they have addressed some of the ATC issues  

 

And part of the reason why it has gone of the rails are your replies in this thread, after multiple people have told you there are good ATC add-ons for MSFS now, including BeyondATC and SayInentions.ai, and both have traffic injection, albeit it's in the testing phase.  Even FSHUD which is known for their traffic injection, now has voice command, which is currently in the testing phase.

People keep telling you there are good ATC alternatives to use and yet you stick your head in the sand.  A lot of people would like better ATC in MSFS, but with the ATC alternatives out there like BeyondATC and SayIntentions.ai, you can have decent (not perfect, but decent) ATC now in MSFS.

Edited November 12, 20241 yr by abrams_tank

Looking Glass Studios introduced the world of flight simulation to ATC twenty-seven years ago in Flight Unlimited 2, and it was extremely impressive. As far as default ATC is concerned, I would really love to see that kind of innovation in MSFS 2024.

Edited November 12, 20241 yr by Christopher Low

1 hour ago, Christopher Low said:

Looking Glass Studios introduced the world of flight simulation to ATC twenty-seven years ago in Flight Unlimited 2, and it was extremely impressive. As far as default ATC is concerned, I would really love to see that kind of innovation in MSFS 2024.

Amen!

On 11/11/2024 at 12:06 AM, Virtual-Chris said:

In summary, I think the ATC could be significantly better with minimal added investment. And you don’t need Generative AI to solve its top problems. 

ps. Without functional and reliable ATC, you cannot properly simulate IFR flight, which is why I consider this more of a game than a simulator. It doesn’t help my opinion that some of the new features in 2024 seem to be leaning in on the gamification of it while fundamental flight simulation systems are ignored. But that’s just my view. 

I've always seen it the same way; moreover that it arrived in placeholder status, barely useable.  Adding in generative AI based on real ATC exchanges is perhaps why they're holding off on implementing the additional logic to bring it to at least a decent level.  

What other 'fundamental flight simulation systems' are ignored in your opinion?  It seems like they added a lot of laminar flow physics and friction, made significant upgrades to clouds and weather effects, ground handling, added a big increase in flora and added seasonal changes as well, and created the basis thru greatly enhanced multithreading to facilitate 4000x the polygon density which translates to very meaningful increases in mesh and texture resolution and overall image quality.   Put another way:  if you have a wire-frame  program that had very good ATC, very good flight dynamics, but the environment was as weak as a wire-frame world would be, would you say that qualifies as a "Flight Simulator"?  It might by your definition but no one would ever want to use it we got rid of that idea 40y ago!

On 11/10/2024 at 8:25 AM, b1bmsgt said:

Totally agree, Ray. I've been using it for, what, 20 years?? Still my go-to in X-plane!!

 

Russ

MSFS 2024 as a new sim is boring, most of the planes will probably just work.

Not nearly as much fun as getting 32-bit Carenados to work in a 64-bit sim! 😉

 

3 hours ago, Noel said:

I've always seen it the same way; moreover that it arrived in placeholder status, barely useable.  Adding in generative AI based on real ATC exchanges is perhaps why they're holding off on implementing the additional logic to bring it to at least a decent level.  

What other 'fundamental flight simulation systems' are ignored in your opinion?  It seems like they added a lot of laminar flow physics and friction, made significant upgrades to clouds and weather effects, ground handling, added a big increase in flora and added seasonal changes as well, and created the basis thru greatly enhanced multithreading to facilitate 4000x the polygon density which translates to very meaningful increases in mesh and texture resolution and overall image quality.   Put another way:  if you have a wire-frame  program that had very good ATC, very good flight dynamics, but the environment was as weak as a wire-frame world would be, would you say that qualifies as a "Flight Simulator"?  It might by your definition but no one would ever want to use it we got rid of that idea 40y ago!

I guess there are a few fundamentals that I feel were missing when I stopped playing a year ago that sound like they may still not be addressed in the core sim:

- ATC for IFR flights

- Other air traffic - and sequencing of such for take off and landing including holding patterns at busy airports - which is a huge part of commercial aviation 

- Better simulation of a virtual co-pilot or pilot-monitoring for airliners as flying an airliner solo is not realistic  

 

 

 

 

On 11/11/2024 at 7:28 PM, Arwen said:

I used the only applicable definition of the noun for each term, you never even provided any definition for Simulator, but just used your own bias to force all simulators into a type of video game.

MSFS (and other flight sims) are software that we install on our devices (in my case a computer) to simulate flying an aircraft.  Also my HOTAS and pedals are additional hardware that are part of my flight sim. A flight simulator is not just the software, but also the hardware used in the sim.  Is the software that is installed in a commercial flight sim a "game"?  What separates a "Home Flight Simulator" from any other simulator?  Both "enables the operator to reproduce or represent" flying an aircraft.

As I stated in my previous reply, "I think it really depends on how you use a flight sim." If you use it as a game, then it is a game for you. But if someone uses it as a simulator, then it is a simulator for them.

It doesn't depend on how you use a flight simulator. Your personal use of a flight simulator does not change what it IS. It just changes what you use it for.

Someone who's playing chess is playing a game regardless of whether they do it for pure entertainment or as part of studies on strategy and tactics. That doesn't change Chess' nature as a game. 

Home flight simulators are games. They have always been. Some people just throw around excuses not to admit that they're gamers, like that was something to be ashamed of.  😂

It's always funny that users of other simulation genres aren't as fussy as some flight simulation enthusiasts about their nature as games, regardless of the fact that their simulators aren't any less complex or realistic. 

On 11/12/2024 at 7:48 AM, Sonosusto said:

Interesting. Dynamic, ever-changing, real world planes departing next to you. But not yesterday's? Because that's simply the worst.

If it's a schedule, it's not dynamic. It doesn't change. It's completely fixed. 

If it's an average of what happens over a month, it doesn't actually reproduce any moment that ever happened. It's artificial. I'm not sure why the fact that this doesn't work for me is hard to understand. 

On 11/12/2024 at 7:50 AM, Sonosusto said:

What are we babbling about now?

Not sure really where you're going with all this.

You often take threads and derail them into oblivion. 

 

For someone who accuses other people of anything, you seem very keen on personal attacks. I have lost count of how many posts you have made exclusively to attack me on a personal level without even remotely addressing the topic. I suggest purchasing a mirror and looking very carefully into it for a while. 

I thought it was clear that I couldn't care less of what you think about me, but you seem very keen on telling me over, and over again. 😂

Edited November 13, 20241 yr by Abriael

2 hours ago, Abriael said:

It doesn't depend on how you use a flight simulator. Your personal use of a flight simulator does not change what it IS. It just changes what you use it for. Then why do you argue for no reason with everyone on nearly every thread?

Someone who's playing chess is playing a game regardless of whether they do it for pure entertainment or as part of studies on strategy and tactics. That doesn't change Chess' nature as a game. Again, you're doing this to this thread. You do this often.

Home flight simulators are games. They have always been. Some people just throw around excuses not to admit that they're gamers, like that was something to be ashamed of.  😂  Then why are you complaining about not having the perfect amount of planes at the exact time, right next to you on the taxiway?

It's always funny that users of other simulation genres aren't as fussy as some flight simulation enthusiasts about their nature as games, regardless of the fact that their simulators aren't any less complex or realistic.   True and not true. American Truck Simulator is not realistic. Elite Dangerous isn't. Nobody cares about Farming Simulators. And its true that flight simmers, like you, are incredibly argumentative.

If it's a schedule, it's not dynamic. It doesn't change. It's completely fixed. See the first points. Let it be. Some want certain ATC, some don't.

If it's an average of what happens over a month, it doesn't actually reproduce any moment that ever happened. It's artificial. I'm not sure why the fact that this doesn't work for me is hard to understand. Again, first point. You derail a topic on ATC and start bringing up every other nuance, issue and niche problem into nearly every thread you encounter.

For someone who accuses other people of anything, you seem very keen on personal attacks. I have lost count of how many posts you have made exclusively to attack me on a personal level without even remotely addressing the topic. I suggest purchasing a mirror and looking very carefully into it for a while. Not a personal attack. Merely pointing out that you derail topics/threads, argue with pretty much everyone non-stop and then get really defensive when you get called out on it. I never attacked your character, credentials or motives. Instead, I have pointed out (not attacked) what you do on consistent basis on these topics.

I thought it was clear that I couldn't care less of what you think about me, but you seem very keen on telling me over, and over again. 😂  Its not funny but actually annoying on here.

Some of us want to discuss the topic that was originally presented. You take the topic and discuss other things.