1 hour ago, Franz007 said:

Again: they haven't abandonned any of their aircrafts. Not a single one. There has only be a problem with their A320 6-7 years ago because the main developpper left.

So I should be happy with my money spent?
Reading... "sorry, the designer has left, have a nice day"... makes me feel better?
I have owned the FF 320 for years, I paid for it, I expected developments, progress, bug fixes in a short time, but after 6 years (6 years !!!) I find myself with a plane very heavy in framerate and that has retained almost all the same initial defects.
How would you feel if you were sold a buggy car at FULL price and after 6 years you still find it buggy?
Would you settle for the excuse of "the designer has left"?
Let's stop defending the indefensible out of courtesy, and sometimes try to side with the consumer who spends money and is subsequently left at the mercy of excuses.
Excuses are just words.
Buyers' money is real!

1 hour ago, Franz007 said:

So they needed way longer to finish it as promised.

Finish it as promised?
What would they have finished?
That plane is in as sorry a state as before.
 

 

1 hour ago, Franz007 said:

You simply have to understand that an addon cannot be updated endlessely during many sim-iterations and with all newest fancy features for the initial price. Otherwise you are just a dreamer.

The Zibo (freeware) has become a masterpiece after 6 years, going far beyond all expectations.
The Toliss A3xx (payware) has been constantly updated and improved over the years, and today it is positioned well above the FF 320 in all areas.
Sorry, no one here is a "dreamer", but we are all sentient, realistic, and aware customers.
And what FF did with the A320 represents exactly what you should NOT do with paying customers.
Paying customers do not "dream" impossible things, they simply want to see the FACTS promised in the related advertisements.
They do not pay to read words or excuses, but to have the facts.
I already wrote once: the more you exaggerate with advertising, the more the customer expects absolute perfection and pays money to have it.
If the customer buys a product, realizes that it is bugged, and comes to complain on the forums, he is not making any mistake and is absolutely entitled to express his dissent.
The mistake is not the customer's.
The mistake is made by those who over-advertise a product in order to attract paying customers... which customers in absolute good faith will pay money (real money!) to buy the hyper-advertised product, and expect that product to actually live up to its advertising fame.
This discussion is not only about FlightFactor aircraft, but it is a general discussion about everything.
It is about XP12 itself,... about MSFS 2024,.... about P3D..., and every other "hyper-advertised" product that is far from the perfection that the customer will find after purchasing it.
This is why I am very annoyed by advertising.
When I read arguments like... "this is the best in the world".... "this is the absolute best"... "there is nothing like it".... etc etc... my testicles literally fall to the floor because I know very well that 50% of those statements are advertising word not allowed.
Question: How can you avoid complaints from paying customers?
Answer: Simple, just avoid exaggerated advertising !!
It doesn't take a scientist to understand it, it's simple elementary logic.
If I have a product in my hand that's worth 50 I don't have to go around the forums saying that the product is worth 100, otherwise the customers buy that product expecting 100, but then they realize that it's bugged and come to the forums to complain.
So the customers are wrong?
No, the customers are right, the mistake is of the one who conducted that exaggerated advertising to induce the customers to believe in something that isn't real.
When I bought the FF A320 I was fooled by the storytellers who described that Airbus as "professional".
After I paid for it and waited months and months of bug fixes I realized that the only "professional" thing had become the bank account of the person who had created that failed project.

2 hours ago, Franz007 said:

And yes, modern addons are highly complex and need years and years to be made.

Nobody denies that modern addons are difficult to make.
Even in the FS9 era there were addons (for example the Maddog MD80) that required years of development.
But that's not the problem.
There are simply two problems:
1- If you don't know how to build the addon you're hyper-advertising, then don't build it at all, and you'll see that no one will complain about having spent money in vain for having purchased a half-baked product.
2- If you've put a buggy addon on sale, avoid hyper-advertising! This will allow paying customers to complain less if they discover that the product is buggy and doesn't correspond to the hyper-advertising they've read around.

47 minutes ago, efis007 said:

So I should be happy with my money spent?
Reading... "sorry, the designer has left, have a nice day"... makes me feel better?
I have owned the FF 320 for years, I paid for it, I expected developments, progress, bug fixes in a short time, but after 6 years (6 years !!!) I find myself with a plane very heavy in framerate and that has retained almost all the same initial defects.
How would you feel if you were sold a buggy car at FULL price and after 6 years you still find it buggy?
Would you settle for the excuse of "the designer has left"?
Let's stop defending the indefensible out of courtesy, and sometimes try to side with the consumer who spends money and is subsequently left at the mercy of excuses.
Excuses are just words.
Buyers' money is real!

Finish it as promised?
What would they have finished?
That plane is in as sorry a state as before.
 

 

The Zibo (freeware) has become a masterpiece after 6 years, going far beyond all expectations.
The Toliss A3xx (payware) has been constantly updated and improved over the years, and today it is positioned well above the FF 320 in all areas.
Sorry, no one here is a "dreamer", but we are all sentient, realistic, and aware customers.
And what FF did with the A320 represents exactly what you should NOT do with paying customers.
Paying customers do not "dream" impossible things, they simply want to see the FACTS promised in the related advertisements.
They do not pay to read words or excuses, but to have the facts.
I already wrote once: the more you exaggerate with advertising, the more the customer expects absolute perfection and pays money to have it.
If the customer buys a product, realizes that it is bugged, and comes to complain on the forums, he is not making any mistake and is absolutely entitled to express his dissent.
The mistake is not the customer's.
The mistake is made by those who over-advertise a product in order to attract paying customers... which customers in absolute good faith will pay money (real money!) to buy the hyper-advertised product, and expect that product to actually live up to its advertising fame.
This discussion is not only about FlightFactor aircraft, but it is a general discussion about everything.
It is about XP12 itself,... about MSFS 2024,.... about P3D..., and every other "hyper-advertised" product that is far from the perfection that the customer will find after purchasing it.
This is why I am very annoyed by advertising.
When I read arguments like... "this is the best in the world".... "this is the absolute best"... "there is nothing like it".... etc etc... my testicles literally fall to the floor because I know very well that 50% of those statements are advertising word not allowed.
Question: How can you avoid complaints from paying customers?
Answer: Simple, just avoid exaggerated advertising !!
It doesn't take a scientist to understand it, it's simple elementary logic.
If I have a product in my hand that's worth 50 I don't have to go around the forums saying that the product is worth 100, otherwise the customers buy that product expecting 100, but then they realize that it's bugged and come to the forums to complain.
So the customers are wrong?
No, the customers are right, the mistake is of the one who conducted that exaggerated advertising to induce the customers to believe in something that isn't real.
When I bought the FF A320 I was fooled by the storytellers who described that Airbus as "professional".
After I paid for it and waited months and months of bug fixes I realized that the only "professional" thing had become the bank account of the person who had created that failed project.

Nobody denies that modern addons are difficult to make.
Even in the FS9 era there were addons (for example the Maddog MD80) that required years of development.
But that's not the problem.
There are simply two problems:
1- If you don't know how to build the addon you're hyper-advertising, then don't build it at all, and you'll see that no one will complain about having spent money in vain for having purchased a half-baked product.
2- If you've put a buggy addon on sale, avoid hyper-advertising! This will allow paying customers to complain less if they discover that the product is buggy and doesn't correspond to the hyper-advertising they've read around.

You wont win, both franz and mr health will come back and say its the best thing ever because its xplane.

Theres nothing more id like than FF to make a decent 777 and even more so a 787 but if history is anything to go by it will get abandon like the a320 and 350 was.

You cant but FF in the same boat as  TOLIS / FENIX or PMDG.  These devs have not done pay to beta because they are professionals, FF are in my opinion rip off merchants.

Time will tell, but im that confident hence im willing to put my money where my mouth is.  21st July.  It will still be in beta and there will not be a 777-300, youll see. 

 

1 hour ago, efis007 said:

So I should be happy with my money spent?
Reading... "sorry, the designer has left, have a nice day"... makes me feel better?
I have owned the FF 320 for years, I paid for it, I expected developments, progress, bug fixes in a short time, but after 6 years (6 years !!!) I find myself with a plane very heavy in framerate and that has retained almost all the same initial defects.
How would you feel if you were sold a buggy car at FULL price and after 6 years you still find it buggy?
Would you settle for the excuse of "the designer has left"?
Let's stop defending the indefensible out of courtesy, and sometimes try to side with the consumer who spends money and is subsequently left at the mercy of excuses.
Excuses are just words.
Buyers' money is real!

I have purchased it as well. And it used to be the best A320, since a few years not anymore because Toliss has become better. But even after so many years it works in XP12, has all features promised and works. And I simply moved on, it's an old story. Their Boeing's have been very good. My goodness we are talking about an addon costing less than a dinner for two. Simply move on. It is beyond ridiculous to be stucked years in the past because of an old story.
Btw. talking about the Toliss: have you seen how bad the textures are and how people complain about that? Much better in the FF320. So you will realize that even the Toliss isn't good enough for many.

1 hour ago, efis007 said:

The Zibo (freeware) has become a masterpiece after 6 years, going far beyond all expectations.
The Toliss A3xx (payware) has been constantly updated and improved over the years, and today it is positioned well above the FF 320 in all areas.
Sorry, no one here is a "dreamer", but we are all sentient, realistic, and aware customers.
And what FF did with the A320 represents exactly what you should NOT do with paying customers.

Great example to talk about a freeware-aircraft...in that regard every other payware is money stolen from you" Do you realize that?

1 hour ago, efis007 said:

This discussion is not only about FlightFactor aircraft, but it is a general discussion about everything.
It is about XP12 itself,... about MSFS 2024,.... about P3D..., and every other "hyper-advertised" product that is far from the perfection that the customer will find after purchasing it.
This is why I am very annoyed by advertising.
When I read arguments like... "this is the best in the world".... "this is the absolute best"... "there is nothing like it".... etc etc... my testicles literally fall to the floor because I know very well that 50% of those statements are advertising word not allowed.

Well I agree. But that's well known that every dev will want to advertise his product. You are perhaps just a bit naive. And talking about the FF777v2 (what it is about in that very thread): the few streamers (some of them real Boeing pilots) HAVE BEEN PRETTY BLOWN AWAY and have found it excellent during their few flights streamed! They have stated it must be the most in depth airliner addon they have seen. Not enough for you? Fine. But perhaps you should revide your expectations. It looks like you will never be satisfied. Again: we are talking about a product simulating almost everything that a pilot does but costing less than a 30 minutes - experience in a level D sim. Just cool down and try to not lose the the big picture. SOme devs need 5 or more years to develop an addon and sell it almost at the same price as the ridiculous simple 2D addons we had 10-15 years ago. And the complexity has increased by a huge factor. The small price-increase doesn't ever cover the inflation.

1 hour ago, efis007 said:

There are simply two problems:
1- If you don't know how to build the addon you're hyper-advertising, then don't build it at all, and you'll see that no one will complain about having spent money in vain for having purchased a half-baked product.
2- If you've put a buggy addon on sale, avoid hyper-advertising! This will allow paying customers to complain less if they discover that the product is buggy and doesn't correspond to the hyper-advertising they've read around.

Again, if you don't want to buy a product, it's up to you. You are free. Many people are enjoying that fantastic addon. I have been using sims since over 35 years and this addon is one of the best experiences I ever had so far! And I can just point out once again that FF is one of the rare devs who informs a potential customer that it is in a beta-stage! So please explain me where they had advertised that you will purchase a fully finished and bugfree product (btw no addon ever has been bugfree because the sim-updates alone breaks things). So suggestingt not developping an addon just because it needs time, is beyond ridiculous in my opinion. Don't buy it and your problem will be solved.

9 hours ago, fluffyflops said:

you'd buy an aircraft with square wheels  so long as its got an xplane sticker on it 

I think your being silly.

Edited January 21, 20251 yr by mjrhealth

2 hours ago, fluffyflops said:

You wont win, both franz and mr health will

No i wont, you clearly have no idea, i would love to see you develop the perfect no bugs addon. Go on, im sure you have many years ahead of you. When you do please let us know. Of course if we had no developers you would have nothing to whinge about.

Edited January 21, 20251 yr by mjrhealth

11 hours ago, fluffyflops said:

you'd buy an aircraft with square wheels  so long as its got an xplane sticker on it 

Round wheels are not the solution either.

 

4 hours ago, fluffyflops said:

You wont win, both franz and mr health will come back and say its the best thing ever because its xplane.

Do you want us to apologise for FF having developped the probably most in depth Boeing-simulation for a desktop-PC?

4 hours ago, fluffyflops said:

You cant but FF in the same boat as  TOLIS / FENIX or PMDG.  These devs have not done pay to beta because they are professionals, FF are in my opinion rip off merchants.

You probably have forgotten about PMDG selling their B737 without EFB? They needed over a year to release that promised feature. With a big difference to FF: they sold it as full version and not as beta although it was. Now tell me who of both is more professional? The reputation of PMDG is probably one of the worst I‘ve seen based on all negative comments on avsim or fselite. Fenix btw. released an incomplete version that had an unrealistic and broken fuel flow, weird flare and issues with one engine-out operations. Even now they couldn’t reach the flight-quality of the FSL. But the usual suspects bought both broken addons for the full price and are trying to make critical comments when an addon is sold as beta for XP and at least offer to people to decide if they want to purchase it as beta or wait.

2 hours ago, mjrhealth said:

i would love to see you develop the perfect no bugs addon. Go on, im sure you have many years ahead of you. When you do please let us know. Of course if we had no developers you would have nothing to whinge about.

What an absurd answer. 😄
So no one is entitled to criticize a buggy product unless they demonstrate that they have more expertise in the subject than the developer?
Sorry, the real world doesn't work like that.
Let's see some practical applications of your theory (so you'll understand how absurd it is).

- The relatives of the victims of the passengers who died on the two B737 Max that crashed to the ground (due to a bug in the MCAS system) cannot afford to criticize the Boeing engineers who poorly designed that system! ✋
It is up to the relatives of the victims to design the plane better than the engineers in charge. 🤦‍♂️

- A customer goes to a restaurant, pays for a pizza, and they bring him a burnt pizza instead of a well-cooked one.
The customer cannot afford to criticize the pizza chef! ✋
It is up to the customer to learn to cook better than the pizza chef. 🤦‍♂️

- A dentist installs a buggy implant that causes infection and rejection in the patient.
The customer who has already paid for the implant cannot afford to criticize the doctor! ✋
It is up to the client to install dental implants better than the dentist. 🤦‍♂️

- A customer orders and pays for photo editing software, installs it, and finds that it produces wrong colors.
The customer cannot afford to criticize the manufacturing company! ✋
It is up to the customer to learn to program the code better than the manufacturer. 🤦‍♂️

Basically, following your theory, every field of design and research should be eliminated: the customer, in order to have the right to speak and criticize, must demonstrate that he is the "messiah", that is, that he is superior to everyone! 

And it is at least funny that anyone who supports this bizarre theory is probably a common person who, in front of a cup of bad coffee, would complain about having spent $1 badly and would most likely ask the barman to make his coffee again (without paying twice obviously, given that the first one was buggy). ☕ ☕

Criticizing can be criticized but putting PMDG above FF is blasphemy.

6 hours ago, efis007 said:

Basically, following your theory, every field of design and research should be eliminated: the customer, in order to have the right to speak and criticize, must demonstrate that he is the "messiah", that is, that he is superior to everyone! 

I would agree with you if you hadn‘t forgotten one very important „detail“; the product is explicitely sold as „beta“. A person agreeing with that and then complaining about it not being „perfect“ is exactly why we react that way. FF even made a survey and asked their users if they wanted them to already release it ina beta-state or if they would prefer not. And then some are complaining about the devs? Sorry but the real world doesn‘t work like that.