13 hours ago, birdguy said:

If you depend on a universal basic income where will your sense of self worth come from?

 

You don't need to do work for somebody else, and make them rich, to have self worth. There are millions of people, globally, that are retired, or don't work, that have plenty of self worth. 

There are a myriad of activities that generate self worth, numerous charities both human and animal and numerous activities.

UBI wouldn't be so great that we are all akin to millionaires, it would be basic. Those that desire more could work if they chose. 

2 hours ago, martin-w said:

 

You don't need to do work for somebody else, and make them rich, to have self worth. There are millions of people, globally, that are retired, or don't work, that have plenty of self worth. 

There are a myriad of activities that generate self worth, numerous charities both human and animal and numerous activities.

UBI wouldn't be so great that we are all akin to millionaires, it would be basic. Those that desire more could work if they chose. 

If you depend on a universal basic income where will your sense of self worth come from?

review of hobby is here

UBI is a tool. It can give more freedom, but it will not solve all problems. 

8 hours ago, martin-w said:

There are a myriad of activities that generate self worth,

That's well and good for people on UBI who choose to.  But, as I have seen here, there are so many men who choose to sit in their rooms and watch television.

Funny, it's different with the women here.  They get involved in the activities.  Most of the time I am the only guy who participates.  Every weekend afternoon the ladies play a card game called Skip-bo.  I'm the only guy who joins them.  On our Valentine Day dance I was the only guy who showed up, so I had a lot of ladies to dance with.

I don't think self-motivation comes naturally.  It has to be developed.  It seems it is more developed in women than it is in men.

Of course this retirement village is just a minute sampling and the people who post here on a regular basis are self motivated to participate.  So maybe I a wrong.  But I think permanent UBI would become a way of life because it is the easiest course to follow.  There has to some sort of motivation to get most of us off our butts.

Noel

 

1 hour ago, birdguy said:

But I think permanent UBI would become a way of life because it is the easiest course to follow.  There has to some sort of motivation to get most of us off our butts.

It absolutely would for millions of people.  There are quite a few folks out there who would be happy to lay around all day and collect a check, plus get free housing, food, healthcare, etc.

In some countries, unemployment benefits can be collected for up to 5 years.  Guess how long most people who became unemployed collected the benefit?  That's right, 5 years.

My concern is not that there a a lot of lazy people, but who will pay for them to not work, and how.

Dave

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_basic_income#:~:text=Universal basic income (UBI) is,or need to perform work.

 

"Proponents say it is indeed financeable, arguing that such a system, instead of many individual means-tested social benefits, would eliminate much more expensive social administration and bureaucratic efforts, and expect that unattractive jobs would have to be better paid and their working conditions improved because there would have to be an incentive to do them when already receiving an income, which would increase the willingness to work. Advocates also argue that a basic income is fair because it ensures that everyone has a sufficient financial basis to build on and less financial pressure, thus allowing people to find work that suits their interests and strengths."

Edited March 1, 20251 yr by martin-w

2 hours ago, birdguy said:

But I think permanent UBI would become a way of life because it is the easiest course to follow.  There has to some sort of motivation to get most of us off our butts.

 

Maybe for a few but UBI is proposed to be an amount that enables a person to survive, not live an easy luxurious life. Most people would desire more.

In terms of the future, when perhaps most jobs are performed by intelligent machines and UBI is more like USI (Universal Significant Income) then I think it's very pessimistic to assume that the majority of those people will watch TV all day. In my experience humans get bored easily and thus seek out new experiences, hobbies and activities. I don't believe that the majority will lie down on their sofas all day watching TV and eating pizza. Some are that way inclined but most aren't.

And of course, if such a thing comes to pass then society will adapt to it and new social conventions will be manifest and children will perhaps be educated in terms of how to use their free time productively. 

Who knows, maybe you are right but the idea of not being able to motivate and entertain ones self is alien to me and I don't believe most people are that way inclined. 

 

3 hours ago, dave2013 said:

There are quite a few folks out there who would be happy to lay around all day and collect a check, plus get free housing, food, healthcare, etc.

As long as they still buy the video games I write and sell, I don't have a problem with that. 😄  The economy needs consumers as well as producers.

 

4 hours ago, birdguy said:

But, as I have seen here, there are so many men who choose to sit in their rooms and watch television.

I've seen this kind of thing myself.  There are some people who retire and simply "rest to death." I'm gonna guess that the only thing they did besides go to work was watch TV, so that's the only thing they know.

You HAVE to do something. In my case, I got heavily involved in several game communities over the years. Ended up with my name in the credits of a few, even in a paper manual. Once a Yahoo search (pre-Google) found 93 matches on my name including one in Russia, and all but one were me.

 

3 hours ago, dave2013 said:

In some countries, unemployment benefits can be collected for up to 5 years.  Guess how long most people who became unemployed collected the benefit?  That's right, 5 years.

I once found myself unable to get significant programming work for about 4 years due to a trusted "friend" who wrote a job reference that was a thorough character assassination and it ended up in the system. At one point I was told I was basically hired by American Airlines in Dallas, but then they suddenly quit returning my phone calls, and I didn't know why. After 4 years I found out about that "job reference", stopped using it, and got hired again. Pro tip: check your references.

I spent some time on unemployment, a lot longer than I thought it should last. I'd have loved to get some part-time work outside programming, but for every one dollar I made, they'd take away one dollar of unemployment benefits. If you want to keep people from doing anything, this is how you do it.

I don't know if UBI might be a good thing or a bad thing, but we don't have it yet either, and may never get it. 

And for all we know, it will require TWO humans for every AI machine and there will be even more jobs than there are now. The advantage will be the throughput of the factories will increase dramatically.

Hook

 

15 produced, daily.

 

 

I believe that all Income should come from work. Income for free is encouraging someone to be lazy. Look at the thousands of homeless on San Francisco streets. They are there because they are given things for free by that particular city. Once they do get a job, I think the government should help them. If they don't, then they should not eat. Motivation and struggle improves the species, so that society constantly is getting better. - Darwin.

As one great thinker wrote to the Thessalonians: "if any would not work, neither should he eat".

 

 

On 3/8/2025 at 6:41 PM, Fielder said:

Look at the thousands of homeless on San Francisco streets. They are there because they are given things for free by that particular city.

 

I suspect they would rather have a job and home than be sleeping on a concrete floor with no roof over their heads. I know nothing about San Fransico, but people are usually on the streets due to tragic circumstances, not for fun.