Bonanza piston vs Baron 58 or 58P

I have been fighting this is they came out.

No interest in flying any of the turbo props.

This discussion can only be about the pistons.

 

The answer was obvious to me, the Baron right. Now I am not so sure.

 

I like to fly under 10K but I also like a little more speed and now I find out that at night flying, you should be using oxygen after 5000. Those little gadgets under your nose are not for me

 

 

the Bonanza is so much easier to fly then the Baron.

The view from the cockpit is so much better.

I use the 750/650 and they are stacked one on top of each other. So much easier to use.

Your not sitting crunched to the door like in the Baron. I can feel it even in the sim

 

The Baron is of course much cooler.

Faster but just a little. 

2 engines is hard to beat.

And if I fly the 58P I can go up the 15000 if needed

The Baron is also much better in the mountains

 

Just fly both you say...but what if you could only fly one..

5000 oxygen?  Never heard that.  In the USA it's above 12,500 if flying more than 30 minutes.  There's a recommendation for using O2 at night above 10k though.

I'd still pick the P baron.  Better heating and cooling, capable of flying to 17,500 vfr if you need.  Deice boots for icing if you go ifr.  Much faster than the Bonanza.

41 minutes ago, Ron Lefebvre said:

the Bonanza is so much easier to fly then the Baron.

The view from the cockpit is so much better.

I use the 750/650 and they are stacked one on top of each other. So much easier to use.

Your not sitting crunched to the door like in the Baron. I can feel it even in the sim

Ron, I'm afraid you've lost me here.  Not sure which Baron and which Bonanza you're flying, but you did reference the 58 Baron, so...

The Baron 58 and Bonanza 36 are the same airframe, featuring the same visibility and the same fundamental panel layout.  Unless you're mixing different generations, they're remarkably similar other than the twin vs single thing.  Going back a few generations, the V35 and the B55 are also the same basic airframe.

As I have both Black Square versions, I'm glad I don't have to choose.  The Baron is FIKI (known ice) while the Bonanza is not so I generally take the Baron if icing is a possibility.  And the "P" version does feature pressurization, so no O2 assuming all is working well, but...

As for the 5,000' thing, not sure where you're getting that.  Admittedly I was based out of Colorado in my owner/pilot days, but I routinely flew night at over 5K with no O2.  My home field elevation was 4650, so I'd basically have to use O2 on every night flight and... no. 

Otherwise, do you want a twin or a single.  That's kinda what it boils down to.

 

Scott

Good to hear about the night  oxygen. I thought it was weird but it was (directly from Beechtalk Forum. Real Pilots not sim pilots.)(That part is wrong, it was AI generated)

I definitely feel like I am sitting closer to the door in the Baron. (That is also wrong). Going back I notice the default view on the A36 Bonanza is off slightly and not centered on the seat.) (at least on my computer). The camera on the Baron looking down is perfectly aligned with the seat. 

Also you have that little square thing in the middle of the front screen. Forget what it is called, but it  does block the view a little and then there are those 2 big motors on the wing.

Although I am sitting higher now so that helped a lot.

 

This is what I read. Cant trust the internet for anything.

Above 10,000 ft (Day) / 5,000 ft (Night): Recommended to prevent hypoxia and fatigue.

 

 

Edited April 4Apr 4 by Ron Lefebvre

1 minute ago, Ron Lefebvre said:

Good to hear about the night  oxygen. I thought it was weird but it was directly from Beechtalk Forum. Real Pilots not sim pilots.

I definitely feel like I am sitting closer to the door in the Baron. Not sure if the center console is bigger.

Also you have that little square thing in the middle of the front screen. Forget what it is called, but it  does block the view a little and then there are those 2 big motors on the wing.

Although I am sitting higher now so that helped a lot.

 

This is what I read. Cant trust the internet for anything.

Above 10,000 ft (Day) / 5,000 ft (Night): Recommended to prevent hypoxia and fatigue.

 

 

That's just opinion.  Maybe if you're a heavy smoker or very out of shape then yes 5000-7000 is a good idea at night for O2.  Legally O2 is required after 30 min above 12,500 ft in the USA.  The square thing is the windshield heater.  Doesn't really do much in the sim but irl it can be a lifesaver.

Regarding supplemental oxygen at night, I did find this in an FAA brochure:

Quote

At night, because vision is particularly sensitive to diminished oxygen, a prudent rule is to use supplemental oxygen when flying above 6,000 feet MSL.

Obviously, this is not a requirement, just a recommendation in this particular publication, but the idea does at least have some official backing.

Edited April 4Apr 4 by weaklink

I would only fly the Baron if I planned to fly across the ocean or desert, just to be sure to have a spare engine in case one goes tits up.

7 hours ago, Ron Lefebvre said:

Also you have that little square thing in the middle of the front screen. Forget what it is called, but it  does block the view a little and then there are those 2 big motors on the wing.

As Ryan notes, the "square thing" is for windshield de-ice.  I hardly notice it, but YMMV.  And yes, of course, the engines do restrict side views a bit as compared to the Bonanza.

I would certainly recommend O2 above 10K for night flight, but I can't recall ever flying that high for at night as I didn't fly over the high mountains after dark (single engine piston plane and all that).  During the day, the regulation "above 12,500' for more than 30 minutes" was never an issue.  Of course, I lived at altitude and was (am) in good shape, so that plays as well.  Some people do seem to be more comfortable with it when higher than 10K.  But in the sim, that simply means you manage the onboard O2 as opposed to managing cabin altitude.  And BTW, nasal cannulas are really no big deal IRL.  The only real inconvenience is having to manage the tubing.  In the sim, I never notice it. 😉

10 hours ago, ryanbatc said:

I'd still pick the P baron.  Better heating and cooling, capable of flying to 17,500 vfr if you need.  Deice boots for icing if you go ifr.  Much faster than the Bonanza.

I mostly (well, really always) fly the turbo normalized Bonanza when I go with the single and the difference in speed between it and the turbo-ed Barons at equivalent altitude is not that big.  The icing is the big thing for me.

 

Scott

12 hours ago, Ron Lefebvre said:

This is what I read. Cant trust the internet for anything.

you can, if you refer to the proper official authorities, like the FAA, and the FAR Aim specifically, something we used in flight school when "opinions" on the internet had not yet been invented, you could purchase the book at most FBOs:

https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/aim_html/chap8_section_1.html

https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/aim_html/

https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-14/chapter-I/subchapter-F/part-91/subpart-C/section-91.211

§ 91.211 Supplemental oxygen.

(a) General. No person may operate a civil aircraft of U.S. registry—

(1) At cabin pressure altitudes above 12,500 feet (MSL) up to and including 14,000 feet (MSL) unless the required minimum flight crew is provided with and uses supplemental oxygen for that part of the flight at those altitudes that is of more than 30 minutes duration;

(2) At cabin pressure altitudes above 14,000 feet (MSL) unless the required minimum flight crew is provided with and uses supplemental oxygen during the entire flight time at those altitudes; and

(3) At cabin pressure altitudes above 15,000 feet (MSL) unless each occupant of the aircraft is provided with supplemental oxygen.

1. Hypoxia is prevented by heeding factors that reduce tolerance to altitude, by enriching the inspired air with oxygen from an appropriate oxygen system, and by maintaining a comfortable, safe cabin pressure altitude. For optimum protection, pilots are encouraged to use supplemental oxygen above 10,000 feet during the day, and above 5,000 feet at night. The CFRs require that at the minimum, flight crew be provided with and use supplemental oxygen after 30 minutes of exposure to cabin pressure altitudes between 12,500 and 14,000 feet and immediately on exposure to cabin pressure altitudes above 14,000 feet. Every occupant of the aircraft must be provided with supplemental oxygen at cabin pressure altitudes above 15,000 feet.

Here the FAR AIM (Federal Aviation Regulations, Aeronatical Information Manual) for your reading pleasure, less than 1.000 pages, but don't worry, you can safely skip the first 40 pages ( changes, updates, editorial changes, changes to the updates and more changes)😀

https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/media/AIM-Basic-w-Chg1-and-Chg2-dtd-3-21-24.pdf

An electronic version of this publication is available online at http://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications

The Aeronautical Information Manual (AIM) is the official guide published by the FAA, providing essential flight information and air traffic control procedures for the aviation community.

Overview of the AIM

The Aeronautical Information Manual (AIM) is a non-regulatory publication issued by the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) in the United States. It serves as a comprehensive resource for pilots, air traffic controllers, and other aviation professionals, containing vital information necessary for safe and efficient flight operations within the National Airspace System (NAS).

 

Edited April 4Apr 4 by turbomax

16 hours ago, Ron Lefebvre said:

I find out that at night flying, you should be using oxygen after 5000

Ryan is spot on here.  I don't know who is an IRL pilot and who is not here, but oxygen is never required at 5,000' AGL!   Perhaps unless you have a medical condition like COPD.... but then, would you have a pilot's licence?

It should be used intermittantly above 10,000' AGL and full time above 12,500' AGL.

IRL, I routinely fly a LSA aircraft - at least weekly - in the UK, and for any enroute flight of more than 70nm, my most commone cruise altitude in 8,000. I have never ever used oxygen at that level, nor has any authority or point of expertise advised that I should.

It's just AI nonsense that's not worth pondering a moment longer on.

As for your question about the Bonanza and the Baron... I prefer the BlSq Bonanza Turbo (not turbine, although that is a lot of fun too), for many of the reasons you listed, like views. It's a fantastic climber and cruiser too.  The NA Bo is great too, if I fancy a less exotic machine.

Edited April 4Apr 4 by JYW

Flown at night many and Ive never used oxygen above 5000 feet. I will say your night vision does  pay a bit of the price but remember even in pressurized jets the cabin alt is usually well above 5000 in cruise. I think the 737 I fly IRL sits at like 8000 at F410.

4 hours ago, JYW said:

It's just AI nonsense that's not worth pondering a moment longer on.

As the post right above you pointed out, it is in fact not.

It's just not a requirement, it is a recommendation.

15 minutes ago, Farlis said:

It's just not a requirement, it is a recommendation.

quote from the FAA "AI nonsense" 🤣

"No person may operate a civil aircraft of U.S. registry—

(1) At cabin pressure altitudes above 12,500 feet (MSL) up to and including 14,000 feet (MSL) unless  ....."

Edited April 4Apr 4 by turbomax

1 minute ago, turbomax said:

No person may operate a civil aircraft of U.S. registry—

Now you fall into the same trap and don't even quote your own post correctly. 😉

 

We are talking about the 5000ft at night part.

4 minutes ago, Farlis said:

We are talking about the 5000ft at night part.

we are talking what the OP mentioned:

"And if I fly the 58P I can go up the 15000 if needed"

but thanks for reminding me of my own post, I had totally forgotten what I had quoted about "recommended at 5.000" and "required at 12.500 - 15.000".

don't forget to put your oxygen mask on in the simulator above 12.500 pressure altitude ... 

and take a deep breath 😀

Edited April 4Apr 4 by turbomax