Been having an interesting discourse with a developer re their products and updates. Have a number of products but one in particular got updated and will no longer load. Least we got to activation. Long and short of it developer gets back to me saying you do not have enough RAM. Now I am running a Linux system and this product for over 5 years. Said I have 16GB RAM and LR only require 8GB. So more RAM yes may solve the hung system issue but them again - why should it - how much more RAM do you need . I made the argument that every other developer will regularly update their models some are very complex and yet they all work - in fact overall I get excellent system performance using Linux and XP12.

So the point is the developer now says I am the only customer with the issue (welcome to business my friend) despite being a repeat and multiple buy customer I basically was told to stop wasting their time and go and get more RAM on my motherboards. My argument is that if the Felix B747-200 (4 engine jet) can function normally and without problems then why is this basic piston engine GA model such a problem, it cannot be the textures or other fancy stuff.

My position is simple - I moved to a linux system to conserve resources and make do with less - not basically through fixing a problem by adding more physical resources at a problem that exists for only 1 note only one, of some dozens of payware models across a range of some 6 or 7 payware developers. IT seems that the developer who has tracked correctly there is a RAM issue happening cannot tell me whY or how to fix it!

Thats my whinge - cannot be addressed so the model goes in the bin and as always the case in economics I found a suitable substitute to go with - Done problem solved. Always amazed this simple concept escapes the thinking of lots of people - if I cannot get the product I want - what is a suitable substitute - In this case a freeware model of identical RW Performance characteristics does the job nicely and no activation issues and no memory problems -

Edited August 14Aug 14 by coastaldriver

2 hours ago, coastaldriver said:

Been having an interesting discourse with a developer re their products and updates. Have a number of products but one in particular got updated and will no longer load. Least we got to activation. Long and short of it developer gets back to me saying you do not have enough RAM. Now I am running a Linux system and this product for over 5 years. Said I have 16GB RAM and LR only require 8GB. So more RAM yes may solve the hung system issue but them again - why should it - how much more RAM do you need . I made the argument that every other developer will regularly update their models some are very complex and yet they all work - in fact overall I get excellent system performance using Linux and XP12.

So the point is the developer now says I am the only customer with the issue (welcome to business my friend) despite being a repeat and multiple buy customer I basically was told to stop wasting their time and go and get more RAM on my motherboards. My argument is that if the Felix B747-200 (4 engine jet) can function normally and without problems then why is this basic piston engine GA model such a problem, it cannot be the textures or other fancy stuff.

My position is simple - I moved to a linux system to conserve resources and make do with less - not basically through fixing a problem by adding more physical resources at a problem that exists for only 1 note only one, of some dozens of payware models across a range of some 6 or 7 payware developers. IT seems that the developer who has tracked correctly there is a RAM issue happening cannot tell me whY or how to fix it!

Thats my whinge - cannot be addressed so the model goes in the bin and as always the case in economics I found a suitable substitute to go with - Done problem solved. Always amazed this simple concept escapes the thinking of lots of people - if I cannot get the product I want - what is a suitable substitute - In this case a freeware model of identical RW Performance characteristics does the job nicely and no activation issues and no memory problems -

And that happens there is a guy on other forum having issues with zibo and the other 737, no one else having the issue , very difficult fixing an issue you cant reproduce, which is why Laminar are so stringent on log files.

2 hours ago, coastaldriver said:

more RAM yes may solve the hung system

Hung system? As in the entire desktop freezes and you have to reboot, simply because you loaded that aircraft? If the system was running out of RAM the OOM killer should have triggered and force-closed the sim. Is that not happening?

I can't recall what distro you're on, but does it have zram enabled? You can check that with 'zramctl' (install it if needed). It will return some basic usage stats if that is active. If it is active, make sure it's set to 1xRAM size. You could also experiment with 1.5x.

If you are getting OOM killed even with zram enabled, it might be a simple matter of creating or increasing the size of the swapfile. Or creating and then turning on a swapfile if you already have a swap partition. That said, if you find that the system writes to swap a lot, you should switch over to zswap instead of zram (if you're not paranoid about someone stealing secrets from your swapfile if the pc ever gets stolen from your home). zswap is smarter than zram but is only needed if the swapfile/partition gets written to a bunch.

Those who choose to run Linux for flight sims have always had issues. There are entire forums dedicated to trying to get things to work. LR does not program X-Plane for Linux, it is built on Macs and ported to Windows. Everything on Linux is a work-around, and trying to run on 16GB of RAM is very risky. Does the developer not publish recommended system specs for their products?

I run 64GB of RAM on Windows exactly for those reasons.

LR dev population is no longer 100% mac. Been a mix of all 3 OSes for a long while now. In fact, their current networking guy used to work at Ubuntu. 16 gig should not lead to a CTD. It won't have the best performance and visuals, but it should not crash. Especially not the entire OS (if that is what's happening).

The game/sim world needs to adapt to the new normal of folks not being able to afford to update their systems as often as they have for the past decade or so.

1 hour ago, blingthinger said:

LR dev population is no longer 100% mac. Been a mix of all 3 OSes for a long while now. In fact, their current networking guy used to work at Ubuntu. 16 gig should not lead to a CTD. It won't have the best performance and visuals, but it should not crash. Especially not the entire OS (if that is what's happening).

The game/sim world needs to adapt to the new normal of folks not being able to afford to update their systems as often as they have for the past decade or so.

If someone can't afford a modern gaming rig, that's a financial reality for them, not a development requirement for the industry. Not everyone is in the same financial bracket, and not everyone can afford the latest hardware. But that doesnt mean those who can afford it should have technology deliberately held back to accommodate those who can't.

Gaming is discretionary entertainment. Developers should absolutely optimise their products properly, but they should not be expected to make older or low-end hardware their primary target indefinitely. There has to be a point where older hardware simply stops being the target. That's how technology has always progressed.

The sensible argument is “developers should optimise their products properly” , not “developers should stop advancing because I can't afford to keep up.”

Technology moves forward, and hardware requirements often move upward with it. That's not some new crisis in gaming. It's been the reality of PC gaming from the beginning.

I've been getting kicked out of the desktop a few times lately, and I suspect it's due to a lack of RAM—which add-on is it? I also have 16 GB of RAM, but honestly, I haven't gotten around to looking into it; I don't have time for this stuff—I have way too many other games to play.

Asking for more than 16 GB of RAM right now is like shooting yourself in the foot. We all know the problems with the AI bubble, and that’s here to stay. Unless video game developers start optimizing resources, they’re going to make the crisis they’re already in even worse—not everyone is willing to spend more than $500 just on RAM.

6 minutes ago, Davehibes said:

“developers should optimise their products properly” , not “developers should stop advancing because I can't afford to keep up.”

Excellent build-up upon what I said. But no thank you for putting words in my statement that are neither present nor intended.

"Should" will be derived from "need" simply because they won't be selling as many copies of their app. Adapting (I do like your use of "optimizing") is certainly going to require using new driver tech and advanced coding techniques. Much the way LR is working towards motion vectors and more modern resource usage. These are various statements of adaptation. How you magically injected "stop advancing" into my statement is truly bizarre.

The 3rd party dev who responds with "no, go buy more ram" will simply not receive as much revenue as they refuse to adapt to current market conditions (which will last for a long while I'm afraid).

3 minutes ago, Aglos77 said:

due to a lack of RAM

Checking dmesg output will tell you if it was OOM situation. Unless it involves a reboot. Check up on the zram/zswap options I mentioned above. If it is OOM, that will resolve it. Otherwise bite the bullet and start running RAM stability checks and pray that it's not a hardware failure.

1 hour ago, blingthinger said:

Excellent build-up upon what I said. But no thank you for putting words in my statement that are neither present nor intended.

"Should" will be derived from "need" simply because they won't be selling as many copies of their app. Adapting (I do like your use of "optimizing") is certainly going to require using new driver tech and advanced coding techniques. Much the way LR is working towards motion vectors and more modern resource usage. These are various statements of adaptation. How you magically injected "stop advancing" into my statement is truly bizarre.

The 3rd party dev who responds with "no, go buy more ram" will simply not receive as much revenue as they refuse to adapt to current market conditions (which will last for a long while I'm afraid).

im not in an argumentative mood so lets just say my view, your view, both correct from each others perspective...i can live with that.

Hmmm, we've been on 32GB of ram as a minimum for plugins to function well for a while (crica 2018). XP12 also bumped up the VRAM requirements.

I can absolutely recommend

while simultaneously accepting that is going to be hard for those who need to assist in trying to stave off a US debt default by paying up to 145% in import tariffs .

Of course, not forgetting the age old story of the "divorce rig" that flight sim has always demanded of us.

sidetrack, hmmm I wonder if this new AMD CPU is stealing system ram for its iGPU. need to check that next time I reboot.

I am a raw newbie, for what that's worth. I jumped from P3D 5.4,finally giving up after it became apparent that LM has left it to molder in its grave.

Despite all the warnings about not having enough ram, well I have 16gs on the computer, (W11) and just 6 gigs on an old Nvidia 1660ti.

When warnings come up, I simply roll back the graphics, what with Map Enhancement and Sim Heaven the eye candy is pretty good.

I'm not trying to suggest that I know more than the OP, but I am saying it may be possible he is trying to push his graphics too hard, considering demands of add ons he uses.

Sherm

Interesting perspectives - I reside in the less is more camp and see that yes if the processes are more complex then more memory is the answer but what sort - when I look at the CPU readout I see 12 cores all being utilised to some degree total memory demand with XP12 on Linux does not exceed 40% that is not a stressed system. Core operation is always smooth therefore the NVIDIA RTX 2070 with 8GB is more than capable of handling the graphics demand and does so at similarly useage levels again not stressed. I see no blurries, get no texture stuttters and overall on screen presentation is smooth - now and then I may have to wait a few millisecs for a change but no show stoppers. My only issue is a developer script that overloads the CPU and is careless with core threading. That is a common issue with multi-factor identification scripts web wide. Would more memory improve disk speed? NO I/O times are core and unlagged.

So it may be suggested I go to 32GB of RAM but I would regard that as 16GB of wasted RAM not to mention the cost. LR still maintain only 8GB of RAM is required for XPlane -more good but not essential. I have no outdated O/S file issues and my dist is perfectly up to date. So I guess once a developer publicises that their product is suitable only for a 32GB processor then we part company as customers thats all. My system is not in need of continuous improvement either - runs well, looks great, handles all the complexity I need and well it is a flight simulator and word not allowed nice one at that

You're all over place here. First it's ram, now it's cpu. I'm not convinced that this is the dev's issue.

7 hours ago, coastaldriver said:

when I look at the CPU readout I see 12 cores all being utilised to some degree total memory demand with XP12 on Linux does not exceed 40% that is not a stressed system.

Different sitations make different demands on the system, for example XP makes its highest CPU demands while loading up.

Worst you will see from insufficient CPU resources is longer load times, some stutters and poor frame ratees.

Ram and vram is a different beast.

Fundamentally what LR ships as default absolutely does not fit in 8GB of RAM, but it can still work perfectly happily because it constantly swaps around data based on what it needs now and what it thinks it will need in the future.

As soon as you are using something none default (e.g. ortho, or a 3rd party aircraft with really heavy complex systems) LRs minimum no longer applies, you need additional resources on top of what XPlane requires to service what comes from the 3rd party as well.

The most insidious of those are memory leaks

They manifest in at least two ways, the first, most obvious, ram usage explodes over time until you run out, this may be just not having enough (e.g. fairly common with less than 32GB and even just a few plugins), or the dev not freeing up stuff that is no longer needed (no amount of ram will ever be enough).

The other way it manifests doesnt really eat up much ram, its more like a fragmented hard disk, as time goes on if a piece of code doesnt clean up properly after itself, what its needs gets splattered around like clothes in a teenage boys bedroom, this instead manifests as a slowly decreasing frame rate, until after a few hours of simming you finally hit just a few fps and rage quit. Default 744 in XP11 has this (is fixed in the sparky744).

You werent really specific on the issue you were facing, could be these, coukd be something else entirely (e.g. system overheating)