Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

tf51d

Should anyone be flying at 86 years of age...

Recommended Posts

Help AVSIM continue to serve you!
Please donate today!

Also from the eyewitness report, they heard the engine sputtering, so if it was engine failure, it probably wouldn't have made a difference if he was 26 instead of 86.

Share this post


Link to post

>Also from the eyewitness report, they heard the engine>sputtering, so if it was engine failure, it probably wouldn't>have made a difference if he was 26 instead of 86. Or it could have made all the difference.

Share this post


Link to post

Michael...the "question" makes total sense. Age will definitely be looked at in the investigation, and so the question is posited here for the same analysis.My question remains...should anyone 86 be flying. These are legitimate questions around the topic of driving, so what makes aviation immune from the same scrutiny?bt

Share this post


Link to post

If he is still alive-John Miller is still flying at over 100.One of my good friends who got me into flying is still an active cfi at 86 and you would think he was 30 years younger in mental abilities and physical condition. He was a wwII carrier pilot, Korean war jet pilot, and navy instructor and has over 20,000 hours.He had his first plane crash a couple years ago (still in his 80's) when an engine quit on a mile final with a student. In an incredible show of airmanship he put it down in a small patch of land next to the highway during rush hour and both walked out without a scratch.I'd fly with him any day! :-)http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/1b5baf...b9f427f694g.jpgMy blog:http://geofageofa.spaces.live.com/

Share this post


Link to post

In Richmond British Columbia, last October, we had an 82 year old pilot fly his Piper Seneca Twin into the ninth floor of an apartment building. He was the only fatality.So perhaps there may be more older pilots out there than one might expect.(Hope they don't put restictions on old virtual pilots!!)Alex Reid

Share this post


Link to post

The first question I would have is did he have a valid medical?Second - did he have a real medical, or was his doctor overly generous?Third - was he flying within any limitations on his license?The bottom line - while there are relatively few people that age who are capable of flying safely and competently - putting a blanket restriction upon them because of their age is unfair.Conversely, we could ask the question, is anyone under 25 or 30 mature enough to be flying?

Share this post


Link to post

>The first question I would have is did he have a valid>medical?>>Second - did he have a real medical, or was his doctor overly>generous?>>Third - was he flying within any limitations on his license?>>The bottom line - while there are relatively few people that>age who are capable of flying safely and competently - putting>a blanket restriction upon them because of their age is>unfair.>>Conversely, we could ask the question, is anyone under 25 or>30 mature enough to be flying?>The regulations already haved posited answers to that question. The regs show that one must be older than 23 to hold an ATP, 17 to hold a Private and 16 to solo. The same arguments being applied to justify continued operation of machinery by those well past their abilities to do so should also be applied to those on the opposite, younger end of the spectrum. If age should not be any kind of determining factor, then it should not be a determining factor at all and the blanket restrictions of 23, 17 and 16 should be lifted as well. As long as a youngster can pass a medical and pass his flight tests, they should be able to fly at whatever age.

Share this post


Link to post

God Bless John Miller...I too hope he is alive!If that is your first statement about John, maybe it reflects on the topic more than you would care to admit?bt

Share this post


Link to post

No blanket judgements....just the question.Should an 86 year old be flying. Let's qualify it. Should an 86 year old be flying on a Standard Medical? On a Standard Check Ride? On a 2 year renewal?bt

Share this post


Link to post

Hi bt.Yes, there are some over 80 pilots that are very able / capable to fly. I know a number of over 70s that are very capable, and a I know a number of 16-70s that should not attempt it. It

Share this post


Link to post

Not really because like all good pilots I think John would be the first to stop flying if he felt anything about him or his health would compromise safety.Since we have not read about him in the news I would suspect that either scenerios have been met.(I seem to recall that at his last medical the doctors pronounced his vitals as someone 30 years younger).http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/1b5baf...b9f427f694g.jpgMy blog:http://geofageofa.spaces.live.com/

Share this post


Link to post

I know I wouldn't want to ride in an airliner being flown by a pair of 86 year olds. They don't pay airline pilots to fly the plane, they pay them to handle emergencies, and I'm not so sure a couple of those old codgers could handle the stress.Same deal with private pilots. I wouldn't trust my life to the nervous system of an 86 year old pilot, no matter how sharp or healthy they appear. In an emergency, they would be more prone to stroking out, or having a heart attack, ect., than someone 40 years younger. There's a reason that airline pilots are forced to retire at 60.Bunson

Share this post


Link to post

Hmmn- I've never had any success at Las Vegas. I wonder if there might be better odds by taking out Life Insurance Policies on 80+ pilots - with me as beneficiary? :)Alex Reid

Share this post


Link to post

Oh boy, they finally raised the retirement age? I grew up in a NY suburb which was filled to the brim with airline pilots, and they all flew off into the sunset at 60. I guess it won't be too long before there are a couple of crusty old 86 year olds in the cockpit of an airliner, yelling at the baggage handlers down below to "get off my lawn!!"But I won't be on that plane! Sorry!Bunson

Share this post


Link to post

"No blanket judgements....just the question."Answer...Yes. If it's OK with the FAA, it's OK with me.--Roger

Share this post


Link to post

They didn't finally raise the retirement age. It's back to 65 where it had been for quite a while.

Share this post


Link to post

well, maybe the airlines (or the union?) tossed them out at 60, then, cause everyone I knew was out at 60, the last being a friend of my fathers that flew for American, who retired back in the 1990's. I remember because he wasn't all that happy about retiring at that age.Anyway, this is getting a bit off topic, so I'll stop here.Bunson PS-Well, I just googled this, and bush just signed the bill into law in dec '07 to raise the age to 65, and the requirement to retire at 60 was instituted back in the late 1950's. You had me thinking I was going nuts there for a minute!

Share this post


Link to post

Should an 86 year old be driving a car without having to do a standard medical, or 2 year renewal?How many car accidents have been caused by 86 year old car drivers where age was the factor vs. plane crashes by 86 year olds where age was the factor? Might be an interesting compare?As I posted in another thread, one of my flying partners recently had an incident where 4 16 years olds decided to see if their car could do 100 mph on a rural road, lost control, and came flying thru his house at 10:30 pm. Luckily no one was killed-but the house was trashed. If that was a plane I bet it would have made national news-it didn't even make local news here. Might explain the faa's minimum age rule however...http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/1b5baf...b9f427f694g.jpgMy blog:http://geofageofa.spaces.live.com/

Share this post


Link to post

"They didn't finally raise the retirement age. It's back to 65 where it had been for quite a while."Bunson,My saying it's back to 65...etc., may not be accurate. I Googled around, but couldn't find anything telling what, if any, was the mandatory retirement age prior to the 60-rule. Sorry.--Roger

Share this post


Link to post

"Should an 86 year old be driving a car without having to do a standard medical, or 2 year renewal?"Hi Geofa. That is indeed the crux of the question. When compared to automobile drivers, 86 year old aviators are probably more of an exception than the rule. That said, just like the issue of aged drivers, aged flyers may require more scrutiny for no other reason than age.This is an ongoing debate around drivers. I think it is a fair question to ask about flyers, regardless of how much we love aviation.Finally, as for those aged aviators who would "give up" flying if they felt they were impaired...I think that would happen as much (or maybe less) than it does with aged drivers. Statistics show that as our population ages it is not happening enough.bt

Share this post


Link to post

"That said, just like the issue of aged drivers, aged flyers may require more scrutiny for no other reason than age."Is not having to pass a medical and pass a flight review more scrutiny? Are car drivers required to do the same?Speaking of 86 years old drivers:http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,92133,00.htmlI am not aware of any 86 year old pilots doing the same-and the case you state above there have been no findings yet-though it sounds like and engine failure which has little to do with age.You are correct though-at that age there are not many pilots because few can pass their medical/flight review. The ones that can however, have!I'd be more worried about elderly car drivers myself-who really don't have to pass anything but whether they can slide behind the steering wheel.http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/131387_drivers18.htmlhttp://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/1b5baf...b9f427f694g.jpgMy blog:http://geofageofa.spaces.live.com/

Share this post


Link to post

Hi bt.Most of the older pilots have a Medical every year. Given the fact that they can pass a Medical, and I have yet to see one that would go flying if they do not feel able, the only other factor to safety is Recent experience. I would rather have my family fly with my body Jack that flies almost on a daily basis, than a 30 year old that flies once every 90 days, or longer, just to show off to his neighbors. It is more likely that younger pilots would try something beyond abilities than an 80+ year old. Most of those guys have been flying for over 60 years, and have No death wish, they do it because they love it. And would not do anything to jeopardize it. I think the most problematic age is around 45-60 when it gets hard, for some, to accept the fact that they may not be able to do some of the things they think they should be able to do. Once over that hump, you either do it because you enjoy it, assuming you are in good health, or stop, regardless of the health status. TV

Share this post


Link to post