dr1fodder

Really? Calling P3D a beta is a "fact"? Must be pretty bad weetbix you have there. Apparently I just called fellow Flight Simmers crap? OK. Maybe you should stop while you are ahead waaaaayyyy behind. OK, time out. This is the first time I have been caught in a flame trap and I am p!ssed off at myself for getting into this. Geoff, I apologize for using the word crap relating to the FSX multiplayer. It is obviously a topic close to your experience. I am still unhappy that P3D has been characterized as a beta product, but I should have expressed myself better. Bob

Wow, a lot of emotion here. Lockheed themselves have said that anyone can buy it. The END USE is the issue, which is that it cannot be used as a game. It is NOT a BETA. It may still have issues, however it has had a lot of fixes and is more stable than FSX. If P3D is a BETA then FSX is pre-ALPHA. Who cares if P3D Multiplayer is not compatible? The existing FSX multiplayer is a piece of crap. P3D is fantastically still under development and has had two releases (soon to be a third) since they launched, fixing a ton of bugs. Indications are that there are more releases coming. We wait two or three years between releases with NO bug fixes for MS FS!! <edit: Also, people are all fixated about the $499 price. Why don't people join the developer network for $9.95 per month? > Wow, why all the negativity? Didn't eat your weetbix today?

.......Anyway........ (wow!)....... getting back to the topic. I have been using P3D for a few months and most aircraft add-ons I have tested work fine. The ones that don't are those that alias sounds or gauges from aircraft that don't ship with P3D. This includes the Boeing, F-18 and DC3. I guess these are competitors to Lockheed (so fair enough I guess) ? Most scenery also works and I have FSX and P3D installed on the same machine with no problem. I can add my FSX scenery to P3D by simply going to the scenery library and adding the directory. This will not work with Orbx scenery because they do some techimagical things to make the amazing scenery they do, so go and buy their P3D specific stuff when it is released! Lockheed have fixed bugs and there is a list of features on their website. I have said this before and will say it again, this is a supported application, with the release very soon of a new update v1.2. The actual, real developers are in the forums answering questions and trying to be helpful. The SDK is FREE and updated. Now when was the last time you had any of those things happen with Microsoft......? ....... like ever? Lockheed may not be perfect, people will no doubt b*tch and moan, but for f*** sakes people! I have heard all sorts of nay-sayers moaning about the $500 price, then ignoring the developer network option for a couple of beers a month. I have even heard of (sane?) people having spent $20k + on a simulator setup, but then moan about spending a few bucks to replace their $18 bargain bin unsupported 5 year old software that is running it all....... I am happy with P3D and certainly hope that the community gives it a shot. Hey, you can cancel the $9.95 subscription after the first month anyway.......

Did you read the post by John Nicol of Prepar3D? Go back to page 1 of this thread and read it..... So your original statement "P3D + PMDG 747NGX" = stability nightmare might be a tad pessimistic?

Hi WestAir, ESP was effectively the same as FSX SP2, with a couple of fixes. It did have no UI though and a few aircraft missing, but it is the same code.

FAA approval is gained by certifying a combination of hardware and software. PMDG is an add-on for FSX (and presumably would work with Prepar3D). Software alone is not certified. Presumably also, an FTD with FSX in it would violate the terms of the Microsoft EULA, whereas an FTD with Prepar3D would not. Just saying.... Certification/qualification is such a pain!!!

Actually, sort of true and not true FSX is not legally able to be used for training even though it COULD be used. It is specific in the EULA and ANYONE using it for commercial purposes is breaking the EULA. Prepar3D is able to be used in a commercial setting. Your software on Prepar3D for training would be fine. Commercial sim builders that are providing FSX are putting them and their users at risk legally and anyhow, why would I put a $50 unsupported piece of software that is now dead in a new simulator that might have cost $50,000 +? Doesn't make sense.

Thanks Bill!

Correct. There is no way that LM would be able to dispute anyones intent to develop just as Microsoft cannot prevent anyone from joining MSDN and Apple for the iPhone/iPod/iPad developer network. I think people tend to get hung up a bit too much on trying to put restrictions and definitions on things that don't exist. If LM says in their own words that "Anyone can join the Prepar3D Developer Network Program." Then that is what they say and that is the way it is.

Yes, that is correct, but many of our customers don't use it to rack up logable flight time, the military use it for tactical procedures and mission rehearsal. It doesn't matter if it is virtual or 2D panel.

Sorry for misunderstanding, I did read the post and because the Prepar3D SDK is free, I thought you were talking about paying for the application. The Prepar3D SDK is a free download from the Prepar3D website in their downloads page. The tools still work for the most part with FSX I believe and they have a couple of new tools that are compatible with some improved documentation.

No not at all. Not all of our particular customers use it as an FAA device. Most use it as (FAA unqualified) desktop trainers. That includes Air Force users. Commercial use does not mean only PCATD, or AATD and this does not automatically mean entertainment. Anyhow, who said training had to be boring? :-)

There are quite a few Prepar3D developers, just not many that are vocal or posting a lot because a lot of us are already on other development forums like Avsim or FSDeveloper. As a former ESP developer I can tell you that the price started at $799 for a license and they didn't drop it to $500 as far as I am aware. There were certainly different price-points depending on the Enterprise/Volume license agreement that someone had with MS, but the average developer didn't have that.The 9.95 is for the Prepar3D Developer Network subscription, not the retail license. I am not sure if you were trying to make a point that the price has gone from $1000 down to $9.95 and that this is proof that the products are failures? It isn't the case and the information you are presenting isn't correct if that is what you are implying. People are always trying to compare ESP and P3D as commercial software to FSX the game and it isn't apples to apples. What gamers fail to appreciate is that the commercial market has a different price-point not just because of the market, but because of the different legal and liability implications. If I supply data to a game, such as say navdata, I want to make sure that there are disclaimers everywhere that it is not to be used for training or actual navigation. It is for entertainment only. If I supply navdata for a simulator that is used for training, now I am in a completely different arena of risk. If a pilot augers into a mountain because I supplied bad data, I am potentially now facing $$$$$$ lawsuits. As such the navdata is now sold for $$$$ to the simulator software company and I will charge $$$$$$$ for regular updates to that data. Same with up-to-date terrain, aircraft systems and flight models and so on. One company I dealt with wanted to charge me $100,000 for data (I won't go into exactly what the data was) for just one country! Some of this data is basically the same as what is in FSX, but because I wanted to use it for training, the legal risk just went up.So, the price point of $499 for Prepar3D for commercial use is astoundingly good. Not that the average gamer would appreciate, but after putting together some simulators that cost the company I worked for over $1M in simulation software alone, BEFORE CODING AND INTEGRATION and the fact that P3D could probably do 75-85% of the functionality for under $10k without modification, the 25-15% loss of functionality is more than offset by the savings. In any case, I estimate that of the remaining functionality, 5% was not required anyway and the other features could have been built using SimConnect.

HiPrepar3D can do both and if it is used in an FAA approved device, the panel views are simply fixed in place if the device is using soft panels. FAA don't care what other features the software has as long as the device that is being qualified meets the requirements as tested.DR1

Yes. 99% of addons work, apart from those that look for FSX to install.

Version 1.1 of Prepar3D has been announced:http://www.prepar3d.com/2011/03/08/prepar3d-1-1-release-update/A supported and evolving product.

Actually no, you indicated that the product was vastly inferior given that you thought it was missing components that it isn't. I just thought it was unnecessarily negative. You haven't pointed out the new features, bug fixes or performance enhancements. Looking through the Prepar3D forums, there is a new Multiplayer system coming, the "gamer shell", ground capabilities and so on. I would just like to see us have a conversation on the product that is based on actual use rather than third-hand information. I am a user of Prepar3D and although it is still showing its FSX roots, I am excited about where this is going. I think that for the average gamer/casual simmer, the product is not for them, stick with FSX and Flight when it comes out. However, if I had dropped a few thousand dollars on sim hardware, would I rely on a product that is no longer supported, or opt for a product that is supported and has a roadmap. I particularly like the fact that the developers and team are accessible and that we can actually talk to them as opposed to facing the black wall of nothingness that was the ACES Studio. Thanks for your time, I appreciate the conversation. I didn't want to appear to be harsh. I guess my FSX passion is moving on!

It's $9.95 per month for a developer license and you get two copies.

You can take out "No ATC" as well since Tim indicated it has the same ATC as FSX and the "pre-game shell" as you call it is coming. I think that your statement that Prepar3D is "vastly inferior" is emotive and exagerated and your advice to a potential user is very strong particularly since you haven't used the product and have made an error filled statement on what features it has and doesn't have."So apart from wine, roads, public safety and education... .what have the Romans ever done for us".

There is a new video for Prepar3D up on their site. Not quite as impressive as MS Flight (but then again, it isn't a fake) :-0 http://www.prepar3d.com/experience/

Pricing information for Prepar3D went up today.$499 per client and $9.95 per month for the developer network.

They have a new website look and feel up. Information on a developer network and VAR program.

www.prepar3D.com :(

The SDK specifically states that the -dev switch just enables the menu items and doesn't enforce the realistic flight mode. That's it. I am not aware of any "debug" logs or performance monitors that get switched on. What else does dev mode do that isn't in the SDK? Is there a reference for other items that the -dev switch hits? This is interesting stuff. I would like to know more about the performance problems that are introduced when using -dev. I am not aware of any specifics so it would be interesting to know, particularly when it applies to the new Prepar3D baseline. Beatle, any insight?

OK, it looks like we are talking about two different things. There is the FSX launcher/configuration UI (contains items such as Free Flight, select your aircraft, weather, Learning Centre etc etc) and then there is the in-game menu system. I was referring to the FSX launcher UI. We always launched the ESP menu system in dev mode (what you refer to as debug mode) so that users could change settings whilst running the app in exactly the same way as FSX does. It isn't a debug mode as it doesn't capture any debug information that I am aware of? Missions were locked down, but for general use, it was always in dev mode. What I was referring to was the launcher UI. I guess I am not clear on what your Free Flight system does as the dev mode basically "ungreys" the menus. Sorry for the confusion, that is why I thought that screenshots would be for the launcher. We created launcher UI's as well for specific missions and simulation environments.