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Carob

3rd Party Flight Planner Needed?

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Hello.I was wondering if someone could tell me if it is necessary to have a 3rd party flight planner in order to use SID/STAR or is the possible with FS9's flight planner and I just haven't figured it out.Thanks!

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you could try www.simroutes.com All you have to do is put in dep. dest. and it looks up flightplans for that route. The problem is that all the flightplans on there are user submitted so for example, you might punch in KABC KCBA and it wont return any plans.

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But how does that relate to FS9? Can you import the plans into FS9 and have them show and have ATC respond correctly? Or do you just have to find out what they are and fly them yourself? If if that's the case, won't ATC tell you you are off course and all of that jazz?

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Default ATC in FS9 won't do SID/STARS; Radar Contact v4 does.FSX ATC is a little better. You can fly a SID/STAR and announce it, but ATC will stay silent until you hit the tower controller on final.I usually plan my 'serious flights' with FSBuild, which is simply the best planner for full procedures. I just export the flight plan into FS9/X or Radar Contact. However, in FS9/X you can also use the simplified approach plates from the GPS.For super-serious simming, I have a set of approach plates for the US. You can also find them via the ChartFinder at Vatsim.Hope this helps!Pat

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carob:if you want to have ATC IFR control from FS always remember that FS has little to do with realism when ATC is concerned. it is better than nothing, but much much worse than the real thing.if you do want to use FS's ATC here are the steps -find the flight you wish to 'do' through flightaware. for this example i picked the most recent departure from KSEA (my home airport, i can hear the jets fly over my house on departure and approach): alaska airlines (ASA) 374, an MD83 from seattle to ontario, CA - SUMMA6 SUMMA PAAGE Q11 PUSHH PASKE LANDO PMD ZIGGY4(there is the link for the flight - http://flightaware.com/live/flight/ASA374)you copy ( ) the listed flightplan and then go to SimRoutes.com's 'generate route' page - http://www.eleventhstreet.com/fb2/ParseRoute.aspxpaste the route ( ) into the route box; enter KSEA into departure box; and KONT into arrival; then click 'generate route.'you will get a complete flightplan (you can print this if you wish) and you can access a wonderful simroutes.com feature -- export this plan in a FS9's .pln format! (see dispatch section of flightplan, go to the right where it says 'download flightplan'; change format from 767PIC to 'FS2004 (FS9)'; click 'download flightplan'; and save the plan into your 'flight simulator files' folder.)now start FS and load the flightplan -- set to go :-)--

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I use FSBUILD mostly... 1 thing that annoys me is sometimes I dont want the plan to have a SID star because the plane will input it into the plan, but fsbuild will force me to put it and once loaded up I gotta fiddle around with the plans getting it just right

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Up until last week, I was using FSBuild. This is a great application.I have now switched to FS Commander, and find even better!

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. . so what's wrong with FS Nav? I appreciate that FS Build is pretty complicated, with a fairly steep learning curve: I looked at FS Commander and it didn't appear to be as polished and easy to use as FS Nav. No-one has mentioned it here, and FS Commander has been mentioned as beter than FS Build. Why? and why not FS Nav?

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I've been using FS Navigator for a very long time now. I got my money's worth from that add-on many times over :)Note that I think that FS2004 is the end of the line for the current version of FS Nav. I believe a new version will be out for FSX. I can't compare it to anything else including the default planner, since I haven't used anything else since before fs2002. Usually, I generate my flight plans from this free site:http://rfinder.asalink.net/free/This site will generate a great flightplan using SIDs/STARs, but you have to figure out which ones yourself. I usually go to http://www.airnav.com/ to download charts for my departure and arrival airports. Then I plug them into FS Nav. FS9 ATC will let you fly a SID if you plug all the points into the flightplan. STARs are tougher. You can request a specific transition and if the older fs9 database has the same point as your STAR, you can usually just fly it. ATC might still give you odd vectors though.

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"SID/STAR or is the possible with FS9's flight planner and I just haven't figured it out."This question has been asked many times since FS9 was released July 29, 2003 (that's going-on four-years' ago)I've experimented by editing FS9.PLNs using Notepad and concluded FS9 ATC will direct the crew to fly the DP (SID) -- if the route is of sufficient length -- but FS9 ATC "does its own thing" regarding STARsThere is no way to work around this as it is hardwired into FS9 ATC procedures

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Under Build options there is a setting to exclude SID/STARS. >I use FSBUILD mostly... 1 thing that annoys me is sometimes I>dont want the plan to have a SID star because the plane will>input it into the plan, but fsbuild will force me to put it>and once loaded up I gotta fiddle around with the plans>getting it just rightRegardsRussell Jourdain (ANZ007/ZK-RHJ)

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Agree. you can add the appropriate waypoints to your plan in the in-game planner, but once you get within range of destination, you either get vectored around by ATC or cleared direct to a procedure transition waypoint you request. In some cases the star is reasonably close to flying direct, so you can do it without ATC nagging, or just ignore it.scott s..

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Even AI aircraft will fly STARs in FS9 if the approach is programmed properly - from the airport side.The key is building the flight plan - and acting like a real world pilot with the ATC.If you know the waypoints - you can use the default flight planner to put in the SID from your departure airport - and the STAR for your arrival airport.You must also know the transition from the STAR to the Instrument Approach Procedure. This would be the ILS plate or RNAV plate or such for your landing airport.The key element you must research and use is the "Transition" which FS uses as the entry point for complex approach procedure.People who say FS9 ATC will not yet you fly STAR are still using the Novice mode of ATC.The ATC will never offer you the option to fly the BONHAM FOUR STAR by voice - but you as a FS pilot can make the ATC give you options so you can fly that STAR and the approach to one of the seven airports that STAR serves. (1) You verify that the FS9 database - Oct 2002 - has the final approach you want to fly, with a transition point from the STAR to the runway IAF. (2) You create and file your flight plan.(3) When the ATC gives you a NOVICE VECTORS TO FINAL approach, tell the ATC to standby.(4) Select and ask for the approach and TRANSITON from your STAR to the IAP.(5) After the ATC gives you clearance for the different approach, you may need to ask for a different runway.Now, there are some approaches for some airports not in the database.There is a real world and FS difference in the way STARS are written in North America and Europe.By and large STARS in North America end 50-60 miles from the airport where the real world aircraft are vectored to the transition point and IAF for an approach.In Europe, the shorter distances have most STARS include the IAF for a particular runway.So that will impact how you build your flight plans.Just like the real world, your flight plan will not override the runway usage at the arrival airport if the weather has changed.Just like a real pilot, you have to be able to change your approach and fly a different approach and runway. There is a reason the "Direct to" key is the most used on a GPS or FMS in the real world - and you need to be able to do that with the FS9 GPS or your addon GPS/ FMS.If you use the FS9 built in approaches, you can enter holding patterns to descend - the GPS will do that automatically if you are too high when you cross a holding point waypoint and automatically break you out when you reach altitude.The key to the whole process - research - test and never give up.

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Many thanks for the lesson, Reggie. Sooner or later I/we will be able to navigate properly - and it will be because of these educational posts by yourself and the greta Jimmy Vile. Regards,

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>(1) You verify that the FS9 database - Oct 2002 - has the>final approach you want to fly, with a transition point from>the STAR to the runway IAF. Reggie:Excellent summary, by the way. Regarding the above, is there any way of verifying if the FS9 database has the approach transition point without firing up FS9?The only way I know of getting that information before I plan a flight is to run FS9 and use the built-in GPS to check the approach transitions available for a particular runway.Is there a more efficient way to do this?Thanks for any info.

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Not really.You could decompile the .BGL file and try to find the transitions in the XML code. Easier and faster to boot FS.

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"The key element you must research and use is the "Transition" which FS uses as the entry point for complex approach procedure.People who say FS9 ATC will not yet you fly STAR are still using the Novice mode of ATC."Wow, sure sounds good . . . !Any chance of you giving us one of these flightplans?I'd sure like to see it working in my FS9thanks,

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Remember there are a lot of real world GPS units out there and still some early flight computers which do not have SID/STAR databases - pilots have to enter then one waypoint at a time - just like FS2004's flight planner.Flying to Boston is one I've used a bit - I'll try to find in and upload it.First, you cannot choose a STAR for an airport unless you can compare the charts for all the STARs for the airport from the arrival direction you are choosing. Airnav.com is your friend for the US airports - http://www.airnav.com/airport/kbosSome STARs cannot be entered in flight plans - they are only assigned by ATC while the aircraft is in the air. Some are only for slower aircraft, some only for high density jets.GARDNER THREE comes from the Albany NY area and brings aircraft north of KBOS - or in position to go out into the bay before turning to finalINNDY TWO is an RNAV STAR which pretty much matches NORWICH THREENORWICH THREE is a turbo jet only STAR for KBOSSCUPP THREE is for turbojets only and entry points are Hartford CT or KJFK - which it goes south of KBOS - its main spacing is to setup aircraft to land on Rwy 27 at SCUPP intersection - 37 nm east of KBOSWOONS ONE is props for KBOS and all aircraft for KOWD, 1B9, & 3B2 airportsNow realize you can fly Gardner Three and be vectored to make a complete circle land on Rwy 4RYou can be sent to Rwy 15 from Norwich Three or Scupp Three. ATC can and frequently does move aircraft out of the STAR early if there is room in the lineup to land, or extends them out an extra 20-30 nm if they need the spacing.Let's make our flight plan to use NORWICH3 with the Kennedy Transition - and plan to use the "ILS Rwy 4R approach with INNDY Transition"http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0701/00058NORWICH.PDFhttp://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0701/00058I4RC2.PDFNote the approach plate has WINNI as the IAF and the STAR has INNDY as the end point.Now - JFK is a STAR transition - not an IAP transition - so the ATC will not offer you that.You set your flight plan and working back from KBOS - drag the flight planner line to the WINNI intersection - then straight down to the INNDY transion.Also take the flight planner line over the PVD VOR, the ORW VOR the RAALF intersection, the NEWES intersection and the JFK VORComplete your flight plan to your origin airport.When you are approaching KJFK - notice from the STAR plate that you should cross NEWES at FL240That is over 130 nm from KBOS, so ATC will not have started reducing your altitude.A real world pilot will not overly waypoints too high. If ATC does not tell him to descend, he will ask to descend.You need to do that - ask for lower cruise altitudes to get down to FL240 when you cross NEWES.Somewhere near RAALF, the ATC will assign you "ILS Approach Runway 4R" - TELL THEM TO STANDBYSelect the menu option to request another approach, ILS 4R with INNDY transition (might be WINNI transition - I have to check).When you are given that approach, accept it. That will allow you to proceed to INNDY and turn north toward the runway and the IAF of WINNI.Note that you are responsible for getting your speed down to 250 KIAS and altitude down to 11,000 when you cross the PVD vor. You also need to cross WINNI at 4,000, descending to 1800 at MILTT - five miles out.Personnally I like to be a bit lower at the IAF (WINNI) because of the way the ILS works in FS - about 3,000 and down to 1,800 7-8 miles out.The ATC will tell you if the aircraft is too far off the STAR and approach.One other bonus - if you use an RNAV approach rather than an ILS approach - you will get priority over AI aircraft. You can still use the ILS to land on an RNAV approach.

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"Flying to Boston is one I've used a bit - I'll try to find in and upload it."Thank you, I look forward to flying it and experiencing FS9 ATC as you've outlined it.As a realworld instrument rated pilot and aircraft owner and user of FS9 since the day it came out -- and after entering STAR coordinates into FS9's edited.PLN files -- I've never got FS9 ATC to give me any more than a 90deg DESTination entry to the LOC and then the 30deg. intercept angle.P.S. FS9 Learning Center -- including the 42page Using the GPS Manual -- state nothing about the terminology to which you refer; i.e., "transition", "Novice mode of ATC", "but you as a FS pilot can make the ATC give you options so you can fly that STAR", "NOVICE VECTORS TO FINAL approach, tell the ATC to standby." "Select and ask for the approach and TRANSITON from your STAR to the IAP" [/font size]

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