Why is that there are only three poor developer guys working the project when discussing timing of the release, but MANY guys when it comes to discussion of needed skills not in the three poor developer guys' fields of expertise?It can't be both...and in fact it appears to be whatever suits the discussion at hand.Anyway, I've reached the conclusion that either one or more of the AXP developers is clueless about who's working on his own project, or one or more of the developers has an integrity problem. Either way, it's quite unimpressive.RegardsBob ScottATP IMEL Gulfstream II-III-IV-VSantiago de Chile

> Either way, it's quite unimpressive.>Can't speak for the other two, but Dreamfleet's structure of beta-testing has always been impressive, and very professional. L.Adamson

>> Either way, it's quite unimpressive.>>>>Can't speak for the other two, but Dreamfleet's structure of>beta-testing has always been impressive, and very>professional. I'm not discussing their beta program. I'm discussing falsehoods being told here by the development team. One dev tells us that there are only three guys working this project, in an attempt to gain sympathy and convince us to accept current and any future slippage in the "Q1, no we meant Q2, no we meant..." release date. Another dev tells us there are "MANY" other people working on this project to convince us that they have gaps in their areas of expertise covered. It can't be both, now can it?That's what's unimpressive.RegardsBob ScottATP IMEL Gulfstream II-III-IV-VSantiago de Chile

>Bob,>>I have always read your writings with interest and respect>over the years. On this one though I don't think your>perception is correct.>Three years of development would seem about right from my>(limited) experience FS 'bus' development.Howard;I don't doubt that the AXP guys may eventually produce a good quality product...but my complaint is with an AXP product announcement that occurred right on top of a competitor's product release, one which contained claims of a Q1 AXP release, and concurrent claims that the AXP product was already in beta. Once the FeelThere release passed (and badly, thanks to a poor decision by FeelThere to team up with Wilco, now a finalist for the 2007 Peter Tishma Trophy), the Q1 release was suddenly a mistake...the "now in beta" somehow reverted to "pre-beta," and now we have developers that can't even agree on how many people are working their own project.Whoever is behind this third-rate public relations scheme is embarassing the entire team.RegardsBob ScottATP IMEL Gulfstream II-III-IV-VSantiago de Chile

>I'm not discussing their beta program. I'm discussing>falsehoods being told here by the development team. One dev>tells us that there are only three guys working this project,>in an attempt to gain sympathy and convince us to accept>current and any future slippage in the "Q1, no we meant Q2, no>we meant..." release date. Another dev tells us there are>"MANY" other people working on this project to convince us>that they have gaps in their areas of expertise covered. It>can't be both, now can it?>>That's what's unimpressive.I'm loosing NO sleep over this..........whatsoever! :7 L.Adamson

Thanks Larry. . . an' I'm getting pxxxxd just reading Bob's continuous slamming these guys. Fer gosh sakes, Bob - leave it alone already. You've said your piece twenty times. What a downer.pj

That might be true if it didn't appear that you were the only person upset, but as it is it looks more like personal axe being ground than the general consumer mould.

I would not say that I am "upset" over this, but, I certainly see what Bob is saying. It is a little disheartening to see such apparently conflicting statements - yes we're all human (hopefully) - but still it seems to happen a lot with the AXP.Joe Lorenc

I wish to make a small point, that is that I support Bob in one of his sentiments, Bob you are right in my opinion that the AXP team stole a lot of thunder from 'the other bus' being released at that time, and I only offer my own experience to illustrate this. I had no idea that the AXP product was in the pipeline until shortly after the original announcement, and when I came across a thread about it I surfed to the site and my eyes nearly came out of my head, 'yes' I said to myself, this is the definitive aircraft and I will run nothing else except this software on my pc, making it an 'Airbus Simulator' instead of many aircraft. I remember ringing two other friends here in Dublin that sim too and directing them to this product site. We were all excited about the Q1 release date, and when I also heard about the FeelThere product I said to the others on several occasions 'What a bad time for a release, and talk about having your thunder stolen, how can Feelthere compete with this kind of feature hype'. We all decided to wait and not go near the FeelThere bus because we were going to sit and wait for AXP. All of a sudden its Q2 maybe and we had our minds made up at that stage. Now I realize that FeelThere/Wilco had problems that even if they has been the only company developing an aircraft this year, would have affected them but would my friends and I have bought it if we had known the AXP was going to be later on in the year? Yes we would. Will we spend the money on it now while knowing of the AXP product on the horizon with its feature rich promise? No. Just being honest about it. Bob, I get what you're trying to convey, and I agree with it, but AXP say that it was an error in announcing Q1 and you have no choice to take them at their word, regardless of your suspicions. Unfortunately this is just business, and as much as we all love this FsWorld, there are people who are actually trying to make a buck, hence the usual rules of business come into play. I've read in the thread that you are being accused of all the usual crimes such as fanboyism, develpoer championing, bitterness, espionage, the Kennedy Assasination, I don't think that is the case, (although your presence in Dallas that day still remains unexplained:-lol ),RegardsGeorge Tyrrell

I'm not "upset," either.But someone had to say something...unless we all feel that any old half-truth or lie is A-OK when done in the name of business.RegardsBob ScottATP IMEL Gulfstream II-III-IV-VSantiago de Chile

I always thought Wilco was the one that tried to "steal the thunder" so to speak. The incredibly rushed, buggy release they had is what made me think that.

>Thanks Larry. . . an' I'm getting pxxxxd just reading Bob's>continuous slamming these guys.>> Fer gosh sakes, Bob - leave it alone already. You've said>your piece twenty times. >>What a downer.>>pjPJ -- You may, of course, elect to not read any more of my posts here if it bothers you so much. The solution is as close as the button on your mouse...Sometimes repeating a point is necessary. Case in point...I write: "These guys can't even agree on how many people are working the project." Answer from another user: "But they have a really professional beta process." Huh??!! RegardsBob ScottATP IMEL Gulfstream II-III-IV-VSantiago de Chile

>Sometimes repeating a point is necessary. Case in point...I>write: "These guys can't even agree on how many people are>working the project." Answer from another user: "But they>have a really professional beta process." Huh??!! >No Bob,You used the term "really unprofessional", in your own devious way to implicate the entire development process; to which I replied with regards to the Dreamfleet standards concerning the beta process. No "Huh???" about it.The heart of the matter is, you're not really sure. Is it just the three "principals" now, and more waiting in the wings (since there always has been before)? Or just three "period", throughout the entire development and release of the project? In a previous reply, you said that it's "half truths, or lies" that appear to concern you. Bob, do you know for sure? Or are you really loosing sleep in this matter? :-lol L.Adamson

Sorry, Bob - much as I respect your intellect and your many super contributions to this site - in this thread you appear to be lowering your good self to the level of those who, in other posts, appear to denigrate individual developers because of some unknown agenda. Here's a fine example. - quote from the FSX forum today, entitled:"B-17 Shockwave I would not buy it" - dwaohio.These are all personal opinions, and are usually negative - but what they do is to bring down the tone of the forum in general. It becomes poisonous. This is my entire point and this is why this post ought to be locked.I'm not blind: I'm not deaf, and I am literate, so most of the time I'm aware of the happenings within the hobby. Most others reading this have similar talents. If XXX doesn't produce xxx on time - no-one will die; or go hungry; or should even lose sleep over what "these guys" do, or not do. It's their loss if they can't meet their deadlines! They know when they've publicly said something stoopid. That alone is enough punishment.I want my DF 727 for FS10. If Paul G. can't do it before August - well - I guess I'll just fly the Maddog 'till it's done. I would never upset Paul G. or his team by public berating them in this manner for missing a release date, or publishing something erroneously. When he and Lou (and his team) are ready - I'll be one of the first to purchase it. When the Airbus is ready - I'll be there, too.It's a hobby, Bob. It's a hobby. Please. You're too good a guy.Best Regards,pj

I don't know Alex, I can't comment on the time frame of the releases or how long each company had been in development because I wouldn't have clue, but you may actually have corrected me there, maybe Wilco had a look at the other product and thought we better get our bus out asap and try to meet an immediate demand.It just seemed to me that everyone was talking about the AXP product instead of the FeelThere one, I'm very far removed from this kind of subject, my post was really to express an opinion of agreement with a point Bob made,RegardsGeorge