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Tom Allensworth

Esp V2.0

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If I understood it correctly, ACES uses this program as the core for titles like MS Train and MSFS. I wonder if the next iteration of FS will have this version or 1.0?

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If I understood it correctly, ACES uses this program as the core for titles like MS Train and MSFS. I wonder if the next iteration of FS will have this version or 1.0?
More like 3.0 or 4.0 I suspect. :)My understanding is that it's inaccurate to say that future versions of FS will be built on ESP, but they will be built on the same core technology as ESP. Same for Train Simulator.Colin

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Colin-If that is true, what it sounds like is ACES will save the best of ESP for large commercial customers like the US goverment and offer us a much dumbed down version for FS. Like you said, same core technology but not nearly all the bells and whistles of the full product. Not very encouraging if this is true.

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Colin-If that is true, what it sounds like is ACES will save the best of ESP for large commercial customers like the US goverment and offer us a much dumbed down version for FS. Like you said, same core technology but not nearly all the bells and whistles of the full product. Not very encouraging if this is true.
Well the US govt may want a sim of, say, just a small area, like Edwards AFB. And for that small area, MS could put in a huge amount of content; super-high detailed ground, all structures within a 40 mile radius, 9-meter terrain, etc. Yet, MS could not do this for the entire sim world, due to time constraints, and probably performance constraints, too.so I think it's true of any product like FS--for the worldwide sim product, you can't put as much in there as you would like, because you don't have time to make every area as detailed as you could. The engine supports more detail right now--look at all the add ons--yet out of the box the sim doesn't have all of that detail.

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Colin-If that is true, what it sounds like is ACES will save the best of ESP for large commercial customers like the US goverment and offer us a much dumbed down version for FS. Like you said, same core technology but not nearly all the bells and whistles of the full product. Not very encouraging if this is true.
Eric, I don't think Colin was implying that at all. Why such a "doomsday" opinion about ESP already? Like you, I'm not very well informed about it, but I believe Microsoft won't be doing end-content creation for customers, only providing the platform for which the customer can then further develop via external or internal sources for their specific needs. Obviously, under that scenario, there would be aspects of the platform that would not even pertain to MSFS or MSTS and would not be included.If the new ESP platform improves FS11 by say 50%, would you be greatful and enjoy those improvements, or be upset that the other 50% of developments weren't included?Regards, Kendall

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Eric, I don't think Colin was implying that at all. Why such a "doomsday" opinion about ESP already? Like you, I'm not very well informed about it, but I believe Microsoft won't be doing end-content creation for customers, only providing the platform for which the customer can then further develop via external or internal sources for their specific needs. Obviously, under that scenario, there would be aspects of the platform that would not even pertain to MSFS or MSTS and would not be included.If the new ESP platform improves FS11 by say 50%, would you be greatful and enjoy those improvements, or be upset that the other 50% of developments weren't included?Regards, Kendall
From my memory of what Phil said about it a while back on these forums (don't have time to search right now), ESP is basically a development platform on top of the core engine. So ESP is to the core engine as, say, Visual Studio is to the .NET platform. It doesn't add anything to the core engine except the hooks and programming utilities required to build third party apps on it.So no I don't think FS11 will use a "dumbed down" version of ESP at all. Any improvements made to the core engine will benefit ESP, FS and TS alike.That's my understanding of it anyway.Colin

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So no I don't think FS11 will use a "dumbed down" version of ESP at all. Any improvements made to the core engine will benefit ESP, FS and TS alike.That's my understanding of it anyway.Colin
Colin is 100% correct. All products will use the same core platform. That is the major reason for having it structured this way. The core platform team will only need to maintain ONE version that will work with all application titles.However, what is used or exposed in the application might not necessarily include all that the core platform is capable of... For example, TrainSimulator2 requires "tunnels." FSnNext may or may not include the possibillity for scenery devs to include "tunnels" in FS scenery.... :( That's why it is important that devs speak up now and request that ACES FSvNext team include features that are supported by ESPv2.0... ;)

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Intersting points. Bill, one would hope someone from ACES would be a liason so to speak with the dev's to gather their input for FS11. Actually by now it is likely well into development if they plan on releasing around the end of 09 (if that date is correct). What Bill says here,

However, what is used or exposed in the application might not necessarily include all that the core platform is capable of...
is what I was alluding to. What exactly will be put in from ESP into FS11? One would hope that all weather, atmosphere related items to include lighting (such as darker conditions when under a solid cloud deck) and the majority of ground related items will be included. The thing is with FS, dang near everything can be used. I just hope they use most of what ESP is capable of in FS11.

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Intersting points. Bill, one would hope someone from ACES would be a liason so to speak with the dev's to gather their input for FS11. Actually by now it is likely well into development if they plan on releasing around the end of 09 (if that date is correct).
You mean 2010?

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For example, TrainSimulator2 requires "tunnels." FSnNext may or may not include the possibillity for scenery devs to include "tunnels" in FS scenery.... :(
Oh, I can't wait to make the under-runway tunnels at KSTL and KDFW...It might be...it could be...great

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Intersting points. Bill, one would hope someone from ACES would be a liason so to speak with the dev's to gather their input for FS11. Actually by now it is likely well into development if they plan on releasing around the end of 09 (if that date is correct).
No, not 2009. end of 2010 for FS11, is the "reasonable" guess right now.Train Sim 2 is slated for release at the end of 09 last time I checked.For FS11, the end of 2010 is much more likely, but not set in stone. What they have said is:TS2 is firstthen FS11 "after that"
What Bill says here, is what I was alluding to. What exactly will be put in from ESP into FS11? One would hope that all weather, atmosphere related items to include lighting (such as darker conditions when under a solid cloud deck) and the majority of ground related items will be included. The thing is with FS, dang near everything can be used. I just hope they use most of what ESP is capable of in FS11.
Yeah that is a good question. I think things that are train-specific, like steam boiler parameters for a gauge, might not be exposed variables in FS11...whereas in TS2 they will be. That's a gauge thing that Bill could probably speculate on better than I could. But I can think of some scenery things that might be train specific, like xml railroad commands, etc. that might have limited use in the FS.

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One thing that I can say very generally about Train Sim is that the graphics are intended to be looked at from the perspective of a few feet above the ground. Things like ground-based textures, buildings, trees, etc, will have a much higher level of detail than in FSX or 11. I would not expect skies and weather generation in TS to be as complex as in FS ( i.e. no winds aloft!). Perhaps universal effects like shaders, lighting, and atmospheric perspective (if they are included, not saying these are specific in any way) may migrate from TS to FS11. They darned well should!As for ESP, Colin and Bill are correct. No matter how realistic FS gets, it cannot be used for commercial-grade simulation, as it is an entertainment product. Or, correct me if I am mistaken, did we all get our copies of FSX from Link Aerospace (a world leader in flight simulation technology) rather than the Electronics Boutique at the Mustgo Shopping Center? ESP represents Microsoft's foray into commercial simulation technology. For that matter ESP doesn't even have to be for flight simulation, it just so happens that Microsoft has a lot already ivensted in flight sim games, so they are going with their strong suit by having ESP 1.0 as a flight simulator platform. The big difference is that ESP is not a game (given the assumption that FS is a game). ESP can be played as a game, you can fly the 747 upside down under the Golden Gate Bridge, but you are paying for a commercial business licence to do so, rather than a game/entertainment license as spelled out in the FSX EULA. The smaller differences apply to how ESP is put together as a commercial development platform, rather than as software intended for gamer end-users. Of course, it's up to Microsoft, but as long as the content in ESP can also be licensed for entertainment use, then I would think that those pieces of content would migrate to FS11. You never know, though. There was a legal hassle a while back with Union Pacific, in that they did not want to have their company logos present in Train Simulator 1, for their own reasons. From what I recall, they were aggressive with the lawyers and the legal threats on this issue. Let's say for the sake of argument, Union Pacific (UP) buys a commercial ESP license for their own use because they want their crews to become familiar with the Port Coquitlam train yards. Microsoft (again in theory) obliges, and all of the trains have the UP logo on them. UP doesn't want their logos on the entertainment product, so all that custom-made UP stuff would be held back out of TS2. That's how I see where there could be differences between ESP and TS2 or FS11. Jeff ShylukAssistant Managing EditorSenior Staff ReviewerAVSIM

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I find much promise in the fact the development kit is 1/9 of the client seat cost - that should reach many more development houses and give FSX add-on makers a real chance at developing on the next level.At the same time, it would be fantastic to see how a simconnect client could be enhanced with all the features devs have been clamoring for. Already, ESP's documentation looks to be improved over that provided for FSX, and it seems that the platform is gaining much needed "respect" and is becoming more versatile with the addition of more sophisticated ground and projectile simulation. It seems logical these enhancements will carry over to the next FS release in some way. I may be overly optimistic but I believe this is all good for the simming community and the wonderful add-on shops in basements and garages where even getting a license of 3DS just breaks the bank. As a development hobbyist, this seems very good thus far.Etienne MartinAVSIM Staff Reviewer

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Jeff, in your hypothetical scenario, if UP wanted UP livery in their ESP training simulator, they would have to build the content and supply the textures for that content. Keep in mind that "ESP" doesn't even have a user interface included! It is quite literally a "bare-bones platform" as far as "user content," aside from the few default aircraft models included as examples.

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I have to agree with most of you here-I think ESP is a interesting core platform for flight simulation.

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Oh, I can't wait to make the under-runway tunnels at KSTL and KDFW...It might be...it could be...great
I can't wait to fly through the Chunnel ... Mission Impossible-style!Then ... well, then you'll have yourself a flight simulator!

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