Hello,Air France Pilots are REFUSING? ?They are refusing nothing so far ....This was only a request formulated by the french pilots union called ALTERhttp://translate.google.be/translate?u=htt...fr&ie=UTF-8Regards.Gus.

Perhaps if Google "INVITED" proper translators to translate from French to English , you will find a different meaning to the word "INVITE" .

I fail to see the relevance of groundspeed in helping the crew avoid disaster. What matters is airspeed. None of the resources you refer to provide the required data for this most "vital" statistic.Dan

If your GROUND SPEED is showing 550 Knots , and starts to drop off , you can assume that your AIR SPEED also drops off . Please bear in mind , that Air Speed is the speed at which you are travelling through the AIR . Ground Speed is your relevant speed across the GROUND beneath you , which is a "vital" necessity in the application of flying principles . :( In other words , if a pilot sees his air speed to have dropped to zero , but his ground speed shows that he is still travelling happily across Mother Earth at 550 Knots , then he is actually standing still mid air with a tail wind of 550 Knots . Hardly likely . :( Perhaps a true understanding of "The Principles of Flight" , which I was first taught in school in the mid 1950's , should be referred to here . Ground Speed and DRIFT can be easily calculated through any Doppler Radar Navigational System on board , some Radar Altimeters will give you Ground Speed , and the Inertial Navigational System and GPS systems will also do so . Your VOR/DME Navigational Beacons can also be used to supply you with your Ground Speed . Though since AF447 was well out of range of any VOR/DME Beacons at the time , this bears no significance .Airliners by their thousands have been flying this same route across the Mid Atlantic for the past EIGHTY YEARS or so , (Recife - Dakar leg) , through identical weather , with no serious mishaps . I first flew this route in a KLM Douglas DC-6B in 1954 , at the time , the most advanced aircraft of its type . It used to take 24 hours FLYING time from Amsterdam to Sao Paulo in Brazil , with refuelling stops in Lisbon , Dakar , Recife and Rio de Janeiro . The aircraft used to carry on to Montevideo , Buenos Aires and finally cross the Andes Mountains to Santiago in Chile , before returning via the same route back to Amsterdam . Air France actually pioneered the route in 1927 , and their Airport Terminal Building is still standing TODAY on Fernando de Noronhas Island , off the North East coast of Brazil . Today , the building is used as a stores for spares for the Technicians maintaining the Comms and Navigational equipment on the island . Advanced Composite Materials were unheard of in years gone by , therefore I am wondering if these modern materials which appear immensely strong and flexible , don't become brittle at cold temperatures and may be acceptable to resonant frequencies and shatter in these conditions ? I am not a Metallurgist , but some materials do shatter at resonant frequencies and cold temperatures . Consider what happened to an Air China Boeing 747 a few years ago , which shattered and broke up mid air ? All due I believe , to a faulty skin repair . Consider also the fateful early De Havilland Comet disasters , with the early discovery of Metal Fatigue . Could this also be the case for the AF447 Flight ? "Consider your Verdicts!"Cheers ,MONTY.

Perhaps if Google "INVITED" proper translators to translate from French to English , you will find a different meaning to the word "INVITE" .

Afin qu'une catastrophe ne se reproduise pas et dans l'attente des r

Air France Pilots and Aircrew by French Law , are NOT allowed to strike . Hence the polite wording in the Notice ."REFUSEZ TOUT VOL SUR A330/A340N'AYANT PAS AU MOINSDEUX SONDES PITOT MODIFIEES"Google's deplorable translation reads: "NOT ON ANY FLIGHT A 330/A340NOT AT LEASTMODIFIED TWO PITOT PROBE"My simple schoolboy French/Portuguese/German/Afrikaans/Zulu/Xhosa translation would read :"Refuse to fly on A330/A340 aircraft , until the two Pitot Tubes have been modified ".So what may I ask , is YOUR interpretation of the Union's Notice ???Cheers ,MONTY.

Hello,French is my mother language ... so ...Invite ..... meaning when used in french....If I ask you to visit me at home tomorrow I will ask youVoulez vous me rendre visite

Good on you , Gus !Perhaps you should apply for a position as Head Translator at Google ! If they have problems with French , God help them with Afrikaans , which is a mixture of English/French/Dutch/German , and commonly known as "Double Dutch" in Europe !Cheers ,MONTY.

The French translation can also mean in English "encourage" but it's also likely to mean "invite" as well. What nonsense I read here on this thread about groundspeed. All a/c use IAS "indicated air speed" sometimes calculated to TAS "true airspeed" Or if flying above FL240 mach number. No pilot uses ground speed as a parameter for flying the a/c i.e. keeping it in the air period!! The Ground speed is there to help calculate actual time on legs. It is not and does not become a factor in terms of the flying capabilities of the a/c. I remember some 20 years ago at the Distress and Diversion Cell at London ATC getting a Pan call from a pilot who was lost. After a few minutes of tracking it was established he was actually flying backwards! That would be negative ground speed I would say.His a/c was in no danger of crashing!!!Vololiberista

Hello,The latest: new debris discovered by a merchant ship (see the map near half of the page)http://www.avherald.com/h?article=41a81ef1/0022&opt=0Pic:http://jc.uol.com.br/canal/voo-447/noticia...buda-190548.php

The FAB said on Jun 13th, that a merchant ship "Gammagas" on the route from Uruguay to the United Kingdom discovered and recovered the rugged structure of the aircraft about 415km northwest of St. Peter and Paul.

Regards.Gus.

I remember some 20 years ago at the Distress and Diversion Cell at London ATC getting a Pan call from a pilot who was lost. After a few minutes of tracking it was established he was actually flying backwards! That would be negative ground speed I would say.His a/c was in no danger of crashing!!!Vololiberista

In 1966/7 time whilst serving overseas in the RAF , I caught a lift from RAAF Butterworth in Malaya down to RAF Tengah in Singapore for the weekend . I flew down in a RNZAF Bristol 170 (Vibrator) Freighter . The 400 mile or so trip , took 10 HOURS to complete ! We flew down the West coast of Malaya , and at some point I asked the Pilot if I could have a smoke . He instructed me to open the astrodome , and smoke outside ! I opened the perspex dome , and stood up into the airflow , and after lighting my cigarette , I found the smoke drifted FORWARDS over the nose of the aircraft ! We were actually flying backwards , with a NEGATIVE Ground Speed ! I then "suggested/encouraged/invited" (not in French!) the Skipper to employ sailing tactics and "Tact" each dog leg in a zig-zag pattern into the wind ! What wonderful progress we made after that ! At this point in time , I will not go into all the details of the importance in Navigation of Ground Speed and Drift , but if you are a Flight Simmer , log a flight plan with Real Time Weather from say Amsterdam (EHAM) to Glasgow (EGPF) , in a B737-400 , to cruise at 25,000 feet , switch OFF all Radios , GPS , Waypoints , Nav Beacons , Nav Aids and fly by DEAD RECKONING and see where you end up ! It is harder than you think ! :( If you would like a lecture at a later date in the importance of Navigation using Ground Speed and Drift , I would be happy to oblige ! Cheers ,MONTY.(I was a Navigator before Pontius became a Pilot!)

Hello,The latest: new debris discovered by a merchant ship (see the map near half of the page)http://www.avherald.com/h?article=41a81ef1/0022&opt=0Pic:http://jc.uol.com.br/canal/voo-447/noticia...buda-190548.phpRegards.Gus.

Hi! Gus ,That is by far a more accurate report than some of the ones I've read recently . It still revolves around and seems to concentrate on the failure of the Pitot Tubes on AF447 . I have a dreadful feeling that when it comes to Court cases at a far later date , somebody is going to "get it in the neck" so to speak , about the gross delays in the implementation of the fitment of modified Pitot Tubes . I'd just like to point out to the uninitiated , that Pitot Tubes are for the measurement of Aircraft Attitude and Air Speed , whereas the Pitot-Static VENTS are used for the measurement of outside Air Pressure relative to Altitude . The ADD Probes (Attitude Directional Detectors) , sometimes referred to as the "Angle of Dangle Detectors" , supply the angle of attack or pitch in the vertical plain for the aircraft . Something is bothering me about the whole scenario . Why have Air France already paid up HUGE sums of money as compensation to relatives of the deceased from the fateful flight ??? .................. sounds very suspicious to me , ................. could this the start of a major cover-up over the whole incident ???Cheers ,MONTY.

Hello,

Something is bothering me about the whole scenario . Why have Air France already paid up HUGE sums of money as compensation to relatives of the deceased from the fateful flight ??? .................. sounds very suspicious to me , ................. could this the start of a major cover-up over the whole incident ???

Well .. it's a rampant feelling in France ...That begin with the Habsheim accident ...http://www.crashdehabsheim.net/editorial.htmhttp://www.crashdehabsheim.net/l%27historique.htmAnd after the St Odile accident ....http://www.crashdehabsheim.net/autre%20cra...nte%20Odile.htmAnd it was after .. the Concorde crash....In all those cases .. something was wrong ... plenty peoples not satisfied how the french aviation and politic authorities acted ....And I think (personnal) this latest crash will arise more questions about all this ......I suggest (I invite you :) ) to use Google sites translator for this french site of a survivor of Habsheim crash .....Regards.Gus.

If your GROUND SPEED is showing 550 Knots , and starts to drop off , you can assume that your AIR SPEED also drops off . Please bear in mind , that Air Speed is the speed at which you are travelling through the AIR . Ground Speed is your relevant speed across the GROUND beneath you , which is a "vital" necessity in the application of flying principles . :( In other words , if a pilot sees his air speed to have dropped to zero , but his ground speed shows that he is still travelling happily across Mother Earth at 550 Knots , then he is actually standing still mid air with a tail wind of 550 Knots . Hardly likely . :( Perhaps a true understanding of "The Principles of Flight" , which I was first taught in school in the mid 1950's , should be referred to here . Ground Speed and DRIFT can be easily calculated through any Doppler Radar Navigational System on board , some Radar Altimeters will give you Ground Speed , and the Inertial Navigational System and GPS systems will also do so . Your VOR/DME Navigational Beacons can also be used to supply you with your Ground Speed . Though since AF447 was well out of range of any VOR/DME Beacons at the time , this bears no significance .Airliners by their thousands have been flying this same route across the Mid Atlantic for the past EIGHTY YEARS or so , (Recife - Dakar leg) , through identical weather , with no serious mishaps . I first flew this route in a KLM Douglas DC-6B in 1954 , at the time , the most advanced aircraft of its type . It used to take 24 hours FLYING time from Amsterdam to Sao Paulo in Brazil , with refuelling stops in Lisbon , Dakar , Recife and Rio de Janeiro . The aircraft used to carry on to Montevideo , Buenos Aires and finally cross the Andes Mountains to Santiago in Chile , before returning via the same route back to Amsterdam . Air France actually pioneered the route in 1927 , and their Airport Terminal Building is still standing TODAY on Fernando de Noronhas Island , off the North East coast of Brazil . Today , the building is used as a stores for spares for the Technicians maintaining the Comms and Navigational equipment on the island . Advanced Composite Materials were unheard of in years gone by , therefore I am wondering if these modern materials which appear immensely strong and flexible , don't become brittle at cold temperatures and may be acceptable to resonant frequencies and shatter in these conditions ? I am not a Metallurgist , but some materials do shatter at resonant frequencies and cold temperatures . Consider what happened to an Air China Boeing 747 a few years ago , which shattered and broke up mid air ? All due I believe , to a faulty skin repair . Consider also the fateful early De Havilland Comet disasters , with the early discovery of Metal Fatigue . Could this also be the case for the AF447 Flight ? "Consider your Verdicts!"Cheers ,MONTY.

Actually indicated airspeed shows you how much air is moving over the wings and is pretty irrelevant when you get to flight levels, the only help with showing the stall and overspeed speed while up high because again it measures the airflow coming to the aircraft. Ground speed shows how fast you would be moving if you were on the ground in knots.

Hello,Well .. it's a rampant feelling in France ...That begin with the Habsheim accident ...http://www.crashdehabsheim.net/editorial.htmhttp://www.crashdehabsheim.net/l%27historique.htmAnd after the St Odile accident ....http://www.crashdehabsheim.net/autre%20cra...nte%20Odile.htmAnd it was after .. the Concorde crash....In all those cases .. something was wrong ... plenty peoples not satisfied how the french aviation and politic authorities acted ....And I think (personnal) this latest crash will arise more questions about all this ......I suggest (I invite you :) ) to use Google sites translator for this french site of a survivor of Habsheim crash .....Regards.Gus.

I think that if AIR FRANCE were a Private Company , not a Government owned Airline , the time factor and results from investigations and the allocation of blame , would be very different ! B) Cheers ,MONTY.

Actually indicated airspeed shows you how much air is moving over the wings and is pretty irrelevant when you get to flight levels, the only help with showing the stall and overspeed speed while up high because again it measures the airflow coming to the aircraft. Ground speed shows how fast you would be moving if you were on the ground in knots.

PREEZACTLY !!!! :( :( :(

I think that if AIR FRANCE were a Private Company , not a Government owned Airline , the time factor and esults from investigations and the allocation of blame , would be very different !

Air France-KLM is a private company and not a government owned airline. As of 31 May 2009 the French state owned only 15.7% of the stock.http://www.airfranceklm-finance.com/share-...areholding.html But why worry about the facts - few others in this thread do.

Air France-KLM is a private company and not a government owned airline. As of 31 May 2009 the French state owned only 15.7% of the stock.http://www.airfranceklm-finance.com/share-...areholding.html But why worry about the facts - few others in this thread do.

So what you're saying is that the French government has an ownership interest of 15.7%.But why worry about contradicting yourself - as long as you can say something that contradicts somebody else.