Despite that... thank you Geofa, David and other mods. I am sure it is a tuff and thankless job.

After having been a very loyal member of AVSIM for the past decade+, I've finally come to the the sad realization that the warm, friendly and supportive community AVSIM once was no longer exists......nor is it likely to ever recover, since the lunatics seem to be running the asylum, not the volunteer staff.I certainly do not envy you fellows one little bit.I join with Jim in thanking you folks for your tireless, thankless, yet untimately futile efforts to preserve some degree of sanity...

After having been a very loyal member of AVSIM for the past decade+, I've finally come to the the sad realization that the warm, friendly and supportive community AVSIM once was no longer exists......nor is it likely to ever recover, since the lunatics seem to be running the asylum, not the volunteer staff.I certainly do not envy you fellows one little bit.I join with Jim in thanking you folks for your tireless, thankless, yet untimately futile efforts to preserve some degree of sanity...

I understand and respect your point of view. I also appreciate the point of view from the other side of the aisle. However, it IS going to recover starting right now. Keep your eyes open for a much improved, more welcoming environment, because it's coming. The issues in the forums have been discussed amongst the moderators, and will be addressed.

Longyear,Thanks for posting what a lot of people around here think about the fairly long standing circus here.This place has become worse than when every Tom, Dick, and Harry, on the planet decided it was their sworn duty to destroy MS for FSX.Net result, no FS11. I know all the other factors so no need to take this literally. What I'm trying to convey is that I'm willing to bet a Starbucks the all that went on then was at least a very small contributing factor in their decision to discontinue.I strongly disagree with the notion put forth by some Mods here that this situation consists "a few who occassionly step over the line".Any thinking member of these forums can tell you who, how many, and what their little agendas are.You can set your watch by how they behave and who they hate the most. Many are given a free reign to do and say inappropriate things in order to stir up discord and inflame any discussion that they wish.They are all regulars and they are as Jim said, waiting with "baited breath" to slam those they hate and almost worship those they don't.I understand your frustration, and like you wish there were more mature discussions made in a genteel manner, but alas those days have been over for a long time here.The outright gall of those who would rather allege or accuse others falsely is the most troubling of all. Questioning ones sexuality in a flightsim forum illustrates how low this place has become.By the way, I had the distinct pleasure to meet and talk with Geofa at Oshkosh this summer and can attest that he is probably one of the influences that has kept the Avsim forums afloat thus far.Sorry to say, but unless the users are policed and attitudes change, even Geofa won't be able to plug all the holes in time to right the boat.If enough folks like you leave then all that will be left are those who have already turned this place into a cesspool. Perhaps if you stay, and they leave, things will improve. :(

Longyear,Thanks for posting what a lot of people around here think about the fairly long standing circus here.This place has become worse than when every Tom, Dick, and Harry, on the planet decided it was their sworn duty to destroy MS for FSX.Net result, no FS11. I know all the other factors so no need to take this literally. What I'm trying to convey is that I'm willing to bet a Starbucks the all that went on then was at least a very small contributing factor in their decision to discontinue.I strongly disagree with the notion put forth by some Mods here that this situation consists "a few who occassionly step over the line".Any thinking member of these forums can tell you who, how many, and what their little agendas are.You can set your watch by how they behave and who they hate the most. Many are given a free reign to do and say inappropriate things in order to stir up discord and inflame any discussion that they wish.They are all regulars and they are as Jim said, waiting with "baited breath" to slam those they hate and almost worship those they don't.I understand your frustration, and like you wish there were more mature discussions made in a genteel manner, but alas those days have been over for a long time here.The outright gall of those who would rather allege or accuse others falsely is the most troubling of all. Questioning ones sexuality in a flightsim forum illustrates how low this place has become.By the way, I had the distinct pleasure to meet and talk with Geofa at Oshkosh this summer and can attest that he is probably one of the influences that has kept the Avsim forums afloat thus far.Sorry to say, but unless the users are policed and attitudes change, even Geofa won't be able to plug all the holes in time to right the boat.If enough folks like you leave then all that will be left are those who have already turned this place into a cesspool. Perhaps if you stay, and they leave, things will improve. :(

Ron-While I appreciate the praise-David,Jeremy and Staggerwing have been doing much more than I have to try to keep everything afloat. While I was more active during the whole fsx release thing-time has frankly burned me out-I still contribute but the others deserve the credit for sure.Now flight sim enthusiasts-and you know who you are-what do we do to turn this mess around?It is time to take things back..

I understand and respect your point of view. I also appreciate the point of view from the other side of the aisle. However, it IS going to recover starting right now. Keep your eyes open for a much improved, more welcoming environment, because it's coming. The issues in the forums have been discussed amongst the moderators, and will be addressed.

If what you say is true you'll need to take the target off the backs of commercial developers. We understand the need for potential customers to have a healthy reservation about commercial developers and their products but this strange consumer advocacy Bravo Sierra protects no one one and causes great harm to most users and developers alike. There is little accurate information and a boatload of false statements and half truths being spewed by every "self appointed expert" in here.The net result is confusion, misinformation, and a touch of chaos. Consider the days when you first started this hobby in order to understand why the hobby and the community is not growing and newcomers are not pushing their way in to participate.Sorry, passing this one off on Microsoft or Commercial Developers won't cut it. The community itself has become permeated with this behaviour and if permitted to continue will eventually chew itself to death.Please understand that there is no whine in this post because this is not our first rodeo. We are as thick skinned as needed for todays development world but this stuff needs to stop. I've had the pleasure of communicating with a number of commercial developers of late and their views are not far from what I've attempted to describe.Another two questiona before I go. If commercial developers are expected to ante up for advertising here where is the incentive to do so if users are allowed to trash products, post inaccurate and outright falsehoods, and do untrue "product comparison"?A related question is why offer review keys to AVsim only to have users delegitimize an Avsim Review before it is even published?Where is the incentive for commerial developers to financially partipate in any future Avsim Conference when users are allowed to sling mud or excrement on those who may be in a position to further the hobby.?

The problems spoken of here and the people who are at their root are not unique to Avsim

Ron-While I appreciate the praise-David,Jeremy and Staggerwing have been doing much more than I have to try to keep everything afloat. While I was more active during the whole fsx release thing-time has frankly burned me out-I still contribute but the others deserve the credit for sure.Now flight sim enthusiasts-and you know who you are-what do we do to turn this mess around?It is time to take things back..

Geof, The remarks were tounge in cheek and I should have included this.. :(

Geof, The remarks were tounge in cheek and I should have included this.. :(

Not sure how to take that but thanks Ron..

The problems spoken of here and the people who are at their root are not unique to Avsim's forums , much the same is now the norm in all the flight sim forums , when a product is released it feels much like being a duck in a shooting gallery instead of a "golden moment", things have changed for the worse.Myriad are the supposed reasons behind it , but one element that seems prevalent is a lack of civility, being a gentleman isn't held in as high an esteem currently as is having a strong voice in whatever the matter , i often see it as a form of stress relief on the part of those who prefer venting an opinion in the place of venturing one .It's a sad day when the gentlemen who are the mainstay of the hobby and the better part of the professionals who produce the products find it less than tenable and move on to other less contentious pursuits , sadder still when i see the unscrupulous stiff those who work so hard for so long and for so little by pirating software in the name of personal freedoms and a disdain for convention.What is it all coming to ? i sometimes wonder myself what the payoff is when by and large one is left more p'd off than gratified by the ever diminishing numbers, it must be contagious ...i too seem to be venting ..My apologies C.Jodry

Chuck, since when did flightsim forums become a place of therapy for those who need to "vent"? I am not refering to your comment here as that is obviously what we all feel at times.I'm refering to leadership in this place reminding people that this place is not their public therapy session but rather a place to gather as a community with a common interest in simualted flight on a more mature level than food fights, allegations, swelled egos, and hatred spewd. :(

Not sure how to take that but thanks Ron..

A poor attempt at a joke Geof... as if your or any other single person could right this ship.Might have been better if you could hear the good natured joviality in the statement.Sorry, it's late and I may be getting a bit loopy from lack of sleep. :(

Chuck, since when did flightsim forums become a place of therapy for those who need to "vent"? I am not refering to your comment here as that is obviously what we all feel at times.I'm refering to leadership in this place reminding people that this place is not their public therapy session but rather a place to gather as a community with a common interest in simualted flight on a more mature level than food fights, allegations, swelled egos, and hatred spewd. :(

Ok Ron-now I am getting it...As far as leadership it goes both ways-and the truth is usually in the middle....

Agreed. Wishing you all the best in whatever happens from here forward.My wife just said "say goodnight Gracie" which is my cue..see you later Geof. :(

If what you say is true you'll need to take the target off the backs of commercial developers. We understand the need for potential customers to have a healthy reservation about commercial developers and their products but this strange consumer advocacy Bravo Sierra protects no one one and causes great harm to most users and developers alike. Assuming you understand that I, nor any other moderator have a "target" on your back, than we are in full agreement here. I do realize that there are some members who hunt down any post related to developers with whom they seem to have an ax to grind. If they can not address topics in a sane, civil, rational manner, they will depart the forums. I don't care about anything from one minute ago and prior. I am disgusted to watch the quality of these forums diminish, and will actively assist the other moderators in repairing the damage.There is little accurate information and a boatload of false statements and half truths being spewed by every "self appointed expert" in here.The net result is confusion, misinformation, and a touch of chaos. Unfortunately, I don't have every single product for FS9/FSX/X-Plane, so it is difficult for me to verify facts from fiction. If someone provides false information, than those of us without the product to verify/debunk there input must rely on others to set the facts straight. Once again, I could care less about the past. I will be keeping my eye on those who seem to have an agenda, and will take appropriate action as necessary. This begins now.Consider the days when you first started this hobby in order to understand why the hobby and the community is not growing and newcomers are not pushing their way in to participate.Sorry, passing this one off on Microsoft or Commercial Developers won't cut it. The community itself has become permeated with this behaviour and if permitted to continue will eventually chew itself to death.If Geof or any of the other folks I've discussed this with ad naseum wish to comment on my belief here, they are more than welcome to do so. To save me the hassle, let's just say that I tend to agree with you.Please understand that there is no whine in this post because this is not our first rodeo. We are as thick skinned as needed for todays development world but this stuff needs to stop. I've had the pleasure of communicating with a number of commercial developers of late and their views are not far from what I've attempted to describe.Understood.Another two questiona before I go. If commercial developers are expected to ante up for advertising here where is the incentive to do so if users are allowed to trash products, post inaccurate and outright falsehoods, and do untrue "product comparison"?I think I covered this satisfactorily above. If not, than all I can say is that we will be ensuring agendas are not permitted to be pursued here any longer. Civil dissent is still welcome, but we will do our best to address those who seem to have it out for developers and those ignoring facts.A related question is why offer review keys to AVsim only to have users delegitimize an Avsim Review before it is even published?For starters, the front page is viewed more than the forums. I'm not ignorant to this area of the hobby, and know that reviews are indeed beneficial to developers. If users disagree with a review, they are more than welcome to discuss the issue in a civilized manner. If members choose not to research a product using more than just the opinion(s) of other members, as opposed to reviews, screenshots, the developer's website, etc, than they are the ones missing out. I can't tell members they are not allowed to disapprove of a product, but I can enforce the forums to ensure they do so without being rude, obscene, or without facts. It's not as easy as it may seem though.Where is the incentive for commerial developers to financially partipate in any future Avsim Conference when users are allowed to sling mud or excrement on those who may be in a position to further the hobby.?Because you can see my new Baron :( On a serious note, I don't know anything about the AVSIM Conferences yet. I will be at my first whenever/wherever the next one is.

We look to the Mods to disallow users to target commercial developers for sport. That is the intent of my statement.We concur with the rest of your remarks with an asterisk. While Avism Reviews reviews may be beneficial to commercial entities they also rais legitamacy of a public FS Website if they are fair, balanced, and accurate.Such things elevate the community, and help end idle speculation about products.If not, why have them at all? :(

We look to the Mods to disallow users to target commercial developers for sport. That is the intent of my statement.We concur with the rest of your remarks with an asterisk. While Avism Reviews reviews may be beneficial to commercial entities they also rais legitamacy of a public FS Website if they are fair, balanced, and accurate.Such things elevate the community, and help end idle speculation about products.If not, why have them at all? :(

For further comments about reviews you'd have to talk with Robert. That's not my department. All I can say at this point is that my last rope finally broke last night, and I have taken a new view of what's going on in the forums. Members and developers WILL be seeing much more interaction from me as necessary, and I have it on good measure that I'm not alone in this venture. If things don't get better, than come back and call me a liar, but from this point forward I'm not letting any member or developer tell me how to moderate the forums. I know the rules, I know right from wrong, and I know what it means to disagree without being disagreeable. The proof of my new attitude is already present if you just look around. More will be coming.

Hi Guys, my 2 cents worth: I am only a recent member, ( this year) but have nothing but impressed with the standard of behaviour and the degree to which people are prepared to help you here.Before I discovered FSX, I was a "Falcon4 aholic" and spent much time hanging out on the forums at Frugalsworld, a fine longstanding site and very well respected. The standard of behaviour and the degree of petty ######ing and arguments there had to be seen to be believed. But the forum still went on and did its job.So, by my main means of comparison , this site is very very good. I think the mods do a fine job, and the vast majority of people here are civil, polite and helpful.One thing to remember, is that you have a huge and disparate number of people, from all countries and cultures here, probably representing most of the huge variety in personalities and behaviour that we as human beings display. I guess its only natural that occasionly, people are going to rub each other up the wrong way and people end up getting upset. But thats life isnt it? Bottom line? I think you are all doing a great job, and dont let the occasional idiot get you down!Cheers, Mark