That's been my whole point from the beginning, John (This kids crimes in the scheme of all that's happened, not very serious). Am I always right? no certainly not, and I don't presume I am. This isn't about me either. It's about the Barefoot bandit, Mr. Harris-Moore.His crimes are not serious, and that's exactly what I support, it does relate to these matters of our participation. this is about mr. Moore.Sure he stole boats planes and cars:That doesn't make his crimes of a particularly heavier seriousness though. Everyone's alive, I find it entertaining that this kid was able to run for a year doing the things he did. In the scheme of things? everybody's alive, the only person who lost is him and he's headed to jail. the people in third world countries will die and I'm not doing anything to change it. Nor am I rallying anyone to do so......You presume its about me, but I'll let you know now it isn't. :( .

So this is all about me, nothing about your attitude is wrong? Don't you see the challenge with that Ryan? "Don't act like you own the forumns". That is exactly what you are doing. "Honest and valid points". You've turned a discussion about the kids actions into picking at faults with society. You are right (and if you are really interested in honestly, you will see I have said exactly what you have said). You cannot use a drop of gas in this country without being responsible for someone's death, usually someone in Saudi Arabia who gets their head chopped off for kissing their girlfriend. Yet our country says "let other cultures be themselves" so it can get its fix of oil. Anyone who has ever used an illegal drug in this country has been involved in the death of someone, because the narco wars are all about getting drugs to those who crave them. There is nothing "wrong" with what you are saying, just the time and place. Using anyone's crime as a reason to discuss all these things is wrong. You want to shift the attention from this kid to your political views. You are even willing to lie to do it, because I for one have never said the kid should be crucified--only that his crimes are serious and certainly not laughable.Read the forum rules--my politics and yours are not allowed and I had to break the forum rules to get you to see my point, which is probably futile.Regards,John

I play guitar too, and like my indulgance Chock. You wished ill on someone for a non-violent act (theft), for stealing your guitar he should be hit by a bus? That sounds very violent to me.500,000 dollars, USD, is an item of luxury, the money of which comes via - Greed.Like I said, your time is always worth more money, it's the foundation of capitalism. I've had dignity stolen from me previously, I've also been relieved of a motorcycle about a year ago, worth about 4,000. It sucks, but I don't wish harm on the guy who took it. There's an obvious difference in opinion here, and for that you seem to think my opinion is nonsense, but is it?

Your're kidding, right? Was this something you typed after a few too many scotches, or do you really believe this tripe? Are you suggesting that I would be greedy if I worked hard all my life and saved my money for a luxury item? You said "the money of which comes via - Greed". How is working hard and saving considered Greed? If you truly believe that, than I surely hope you NEVER give anyone retirement advice.

I'm not kidding at all.If you work hard all your life, that's wonderful. If you've not thought of others who genuinely Need that money more than you do, or put yourself before them - you've done so in greed.It's natural behavior, mostly.P.S.: I don't drink.

Your're kidding, right? Was this something you typed after a few too many scotches, or do you really believe this tripe? Are you suggesting that I would be greedy if I worked hard all my life and saved my money for a luxury item? You said "the money of which comes via - Greed". How is working hard and saving considered Greed? If you truly believe that, than I surely hope you NEVER give anyone retirement advice.

I'm not kidding at all.If you work hard all your life, that's wonderful. If you've not thought of others who genuinely Need that money more than you do, or put yourself before them - you've done so in greed.It's natural behavior, mostly.P.S.: I don't drink.

Then every single dollar you have is greed. There will ALWAYS be someone who needs it more than you. Do you intend to sell all of your posessions and donate the proceeds to charity, or just keep being greedy?

Your're kidding, right? Was this something you typed after a few too many scotches, or do you really believe this tripe? Are you suggesting that I would be greedy if I worked hard all my life and saved my money for a luxury item? You said "the money of which comes via - Greed". How is working hard and saving considered Greed? If you truly believe that, than I surely hope you NEVER give anyone retirement advice.

There is actually something more significant here that bothers me more. Life Flight, Doctors without Borders, Make a Wish, and so on are generally allowed free use of corporate and civil aircraft to save lives. Most of my flying buddies are in the Civil Air Patrol and if I ever transition from light sport to GA, I plan on joining as well. They have saved the lives of lost campers, sighted fires, directed police to accidents--the list goes on. Aircraft aren't just "rich men's toys". And usually the fancier the aircraft, the more I see it used on loan for all sorts of humanitarian efforts. One can only speculate, but chances are good one or more of the aircraft wrecked by that kid could have helped save a life someday--and won't. Everything is connected--someone can come in here and cite how the way we live ruins lives--but also we can be connected to good and breaking that connection is a huge sin no matter how you look at it. I still think this has nothing to do with the Barefoot bandit. The comments that we both have read which dismay us are more about someone using a thread and hijacking it to inject his own brand of politics. And when he is called out on that, he changes the subject.Regards,John

Correct,I don't intend to sell all my posessions (The bare minimum of food, water, a girlfriend and sex) this is where greed ends, until you hit communism.That said, millions of people die because they do not have basic necessities. They've died, because of our greed. It's a crime of humanity that is accepted and we partake in, how is this kids theft horribly worse?I didn't say he's right, but we aren't exactly all angels ourselves either. I'm willing to bet I'll get a lot of flack for that just because people have difficulty accepting that they've never committed crimes against other humans, the goal is to be a model citizen. The truth of the matter as it lays though, is no ones hands are free of blood.It's a far cry from your typical train of though, and I've already gotten some flack from it (re: my original post). I still stand by it as true though.What's to learn from the above said?Well,Before anybody calls this kid's crimes serious, or that he's a "Bad person" this or that, look at yourself. I defend Mr. harris moore's name, in that his crimes on the world aren't particularly worse than our own, he's committed crimes none the less though for which there are consequences and he's going to jail. Doesn't mean he's better or worse than anybody else though.That's my point. That's why I find his "Crimes" entertaining, everyone's alive, in the scheme of things it means very little.Re: above, Life is what matters in this world, above all else. If everyone's alive, the rest was in the details.That said, I obide the law because I don't want to go to prison, and moral difficulties in many situations. Doesn't make me innnocent though, doesn't make anyone else here innocent.Fact of the matter is, this kid's done nothing more, or worse, than what we do daily in our own ignorance as model citizens going about our business. It's model citizens like us that contribute to the deaths of Millions.But I'm just off my rocker, huh? :(

Then every single dollar you have is greed. There will ALWAYS be someone who needs it more than you. Do you intend to sell all of your posessions and donate the proceeds to charity, or just keep being greedy?

[

So he was in the bahamas, with a gun, and possibly violated a law....

(My emphasis)Under the Bahamian Firearms Act it's an offence to possess a revolver/pistol without a special licence. http://laws.bahamas.gov.bs/statutes/statute_CHAPTER_213.htmlThe penalties are up to 10 years imprisonment and $10,000 fine. Even if you don't think it's serious, the Bahamian authorites do.Are you seriously suggesting he he'd applied for and been granted such a licence?

John,You seem misinformed regarding this, Please re-read my original post, it's a matter of not looking at this kid as some "horrible" thief.The reply you made to my post was on topic regarding an argument from "mgh", and bill, who supported him as a.."amoral sociopath"that's a horrible label by people either un-informed, or seriously breaching the rights of a patient (By bill), or both.My Arguement is against the use of these labels against Mr. Moore. my post did, and does, have to do with Mr. Moore entirely. (and not using such labels)Thus, I don't follow you =|

There is actually something more significant here that bothers me more. Life Flight, Doctors without Borders, Make a Wish, and so on are generally allowed free use of corporate and civil aircraft to save lives. Most of my flying buddies are in the Civil Air Patrol and if I ever transition from light sport to GA, I plan on joining as well. They have saved the lives of lost campers, sighted fires, directed police to accidents--the list goes on. Aircraft aren't just "rich men's toys". And usually the fancier the aircraft, the more I see it used on loan for all sorts of humanitarian efforts. One can only speculate, but chances are good one or more of the aircraft wrecked by that kid could have helped save a life someday--and won't. Everything is connected--someone can come in here and cite how the way we live ruins lives--but also we can be connected to good and breaking that connection is a huge sin no matter how you look at it. I still think this has nothing to do with the Barefoot bandit. The comments that we both have read which dismay us are more about someone using a thread and hijacking it to inject his own brand of politics. And when he is called out on that, he changes the subject.Regards,John

Then he broke a law, and?I never said he didn't. I never implied he applied for a license either. John implied his carrying of a gun meant he would use it against a person, I'd say that's incorrect, and a blatant assumption of a tool which has plenty of good purposes, as well as bad purposes.

[ (My emphasis)Under the Bahamian Firearms Act it's an offence to possess a revolver/pistol without a special licence. http://laws.bahamas.gov.bs/statutes/statute_CHAPTER_213.htmlThe penalties are up to 10 years imprisonment and $10,000 fine. Even if you don't think it's serious, the Bahamian authorites do.Are you seriously suggesting he he'd applied for and been granted such a licence?

John,You seem misinformed regarding this, Please re-read my original post, it's a matter of not looking at this kid as some horrible thief.The reply you made to my post was on topic regarding an argument from "mgh", and bill, who supported him as a.."immoral sociopath"I think that's a horrible label by people either un-informed, or seriously breatching the rights of patient (By bill)My arguement is against the use of these labels against mr. Moore. my post did, and does, have to do with mr. moore entirely.Thus, I don't follow you =|Then he broke a law, and?I never said he didn't. I never implied he applied for a license either :(

I am not sure how I am failing to communicate my point. If a nine year old steals a car, and "no one" gets hurt, but the car turned out to be the tool that unemployed man or woman needed to get the one interview that could have landed him or her the job--I would feel terrible but I would also say the nine year old did not know right and wrong. If an eighteen year old did the same, maybe in his eyes no one got hurt, but someone did.Thefts damage lives all the time. My home was broken into. The thieves were "nice"--they broke in in such a way that no damage was done to my home. All the things they took were replaceable. But they also grabbed a work laptop with absolutely no sensitive information on it. Regardless, my company had to issue a letter, in compliance with federal law, about a possible breach of customer security. Business was lost, people were laid off, all because of an "innocent, victimless" theft. Don't you see, there is no such thing as a crime that can be laughed off. We are connected to the bad that happens in the world, that's why in the eyes of many religions we are all born "with sin". But just because we are sinners does not mean we should find ways to make light of sin.Maybe that is not your intent, but that is how your posts come across because I feel you are asking the forum members to lighten up on someone who knew right from wrong, and in spite of that recklessly entered people lives without regards to the consequences. You sound educated, scan Youtube and pull up the series "Connections" by James Burke. It is fascinating as it shows just how intertwined our lives are. We all have freedom of choice but to assume an "innocent" act does not have consequences many generations from now is something I don't like to do. Even my own sins catch up to me years down the line in ways I never imagined. Yet I still make mistakes every day and the best penance I can find is to discuss them openly and why I am motivated to respond here the way I have.Regards,John

Absolutely,This subject's gone far too long anyway, If you think I'm off my rocker I'd be obliged to hear Why, have you never thought of what I said above? do you think it's not true?You seem to be baffled by the idea that by keeping anything more than you absolutely need, you contribute to the death of those less fortunate. I think it's a very simple connection with real meaning and implication that deserves a bit of thought if you think otherwise.I'll just leave it there

.............???????....................In this case I'd say - Yes.Now give it a rest, please.

You seem to be baffled by the idea that by keeping anything more than you absolutely need, you contribute to the death of those less fortunate.

I'm baffled by your hypocrisy. As you don't absolutely need a computer and internet connection (or even flight Simulator) you are contributing to the death of those less fortunate by keeping them.

Absolutely,This subject's gone far too long anyway, If you think I'm off my rocker I'd be obliged to hear Why, have you never thought of what I said above? do you think it's not true?You seem to be baffled by the idea that by keeping anything more than you absolutely need, you contribute to the death of those less fortunate. I think it's a very simple connection with real meaning and implication that deserves a bit of thought if you think otherwise.I'll just leave it there

Ryan- Wrong! The rest of the world- both developing and developed countries, are anxiously awaiting America's return to prosperity AND INCREASED CONSUMPTION. Only in this way can their standard of living improve- by exporting to the USA. In turn America pays for these goods by exporting high tech products and knowhow back to the rest of the world.A rising tide lifts ALL boats!You would greatly improve your understanding of how the world REALLY works by reading a famous book- The Wealth of Nations by Adam Smith, before you head off to college.Alex Reid

Absolutely,This subject's gone far too long anyway, If you think I'm off my rocker I'd be obliged to hear Why, have you never thought of what I said above? do you think it's not true?You seem to be baffled by the idea that by keeping anything more than you absolutely need, you contribute to the death of those less fortunate. I think it's a very simple connection with real meaning and implication that deserves a bit of thought if you think otherwise.I'll just leave it there

Problem is you can't leave it there Ryan. If your moral compass guides you to take a thread about someone stealing and crashing property and turn that thread into one about your POV on life, that raises everyone's eyebrows. We're all brothers in this forum, and while I may not agree with why you injected your POV onto this thread, I do have to feel concerned. I'm a parent, I can't help it. For all I know you could be much older than I am but even my daughter has taught me some valuable life lessons.We used to live in a world where we could express our ideas and opinions, and that's as far as they went. Nothing was put to print, so to speak. But now everything we do or say follows us around. Case in point--I went to a job interview once and was told "Wow, I already know you, I LOVE Landclass Assistant". It was a utility I spent less than a week throwing together, in all its various forms. By the same token, if I express disrespect for someone's race, or color in a public forum, or express a fringe view on someone committing a crime, that will come back at me too.I was wrong to say "off your rocker" but my wife uses that term when I say something or come up with a string of verbiage so off the wall so that she wants me to sit down, take a deep breath, and listen to my own voice. It popped into my head.You sound intelligent--I just wish for your own sake you can connect all of the dots.Regards,John

Perhaps I'm getting my point off wrong as well. This kid's going to jail no ifs ands or buts about it, he stole property from people which is fundamentally wrong. The fact of the matter is, "as sinners" some sins are greater than others? mmmmm, Sure, Maybe. In the balance though, you could call every american who has a sent more than he needs, as participative in neglect, or even further murder."Amoral Sociopath" is not the words I would use to describe Mr. Moore. the fact Bill did and flaunted a masters in psychology I think is really problematic. for a number of reasons (That appalled me more than his original use of the word). The fact of the matter is, he doesn't deserve that sort of derogatory talk anymore than anyone else in this forum. Nobody's hands are clean in this world. This isn't a matter of religion either, you don't have to believe in any "Deity" to understand that ideology.My original post was regarding this matter with bill, but then it somehow got changed into Point of view. Which I never intended? read my Original post to which you replied. It was in response to bill and his statements of amoral sociopath. It had nothing to do with me and everything to do with bills description of Mr. Moore. This apparently problematic in the rules? after reading, but I only did so after bill's judgement on mr. Moore, so I guess we're all guilty of sharing our points of view regarding who is and why they are.The only thing we seem to all agree on is Moore is guilty, your earlier posts imply that I am guilty, and I implied that bill is guilty. It's a horrible mess.I think we're all guilty, for whatever it's worth. :( I'll have a look for the video :( Regards,Ryan

I am not sure how I am failing to communicate my point. If a nine year old steals a car, and "no one" gets hurt, but the car turned out to be the tool that unemployed man or woman needed to get the one interview that could have landed him or her the job--I would feel terrible but I would also say the nine year old did not know right and wrong. If an eighteen year old did the same, maybe in his eyes no one got hurt, but someone did.Thefts damage lives all the time. My home was broken into. The thieves were "nice"--they broke in in such a way that no damage was done to my home. All the things they took were replaceable. But they also grabbed a work laptop with absolutely no sensitive information on it. Regardless, my company had to issue a letter, in compliance with federal law, about a possible breach of customer security. Business was lost, people were laid off, all because of an "innocent, victimless" theft. Don't you see, there is no such thing as a crime that can be laughed off. We are connected to the bad that happens in the world, that's why in the eyes of many religions we are all born "with sin". But just because we are sinners does not mean we should find ways to make light of sin.Maybe that is not your intent, but that is how your posts come across because I feel you are asking the forum members to lighten up on someone who knew right from wrong, and in spite of that recklessly entered people lives without regards to the consequences. You sound educated, scan Youtube and pull up the series "Connections" by James Burke. It is fascinating as it shows just how intertwined our lives are. We all have freedom of choice but to assume an "innocent" act does not have consequences many generations from now is something I don't like to do. Even my own sins catch up to me years down the line in ways I never imagined. Yet I still make mistakes every day and the best penance I can find is to discuss them openly and why I am motivated to respond here the way I have.Regards,John

Absolutely,This subject's gone far too long anyway, If you think I'm off my rocker I'd be obliged to hear Why, have you never thought of what I said above? do you think it's not true?You seem to be baffled by the idea that by keeping anything more than you absolutely need, you contribute to the death of those less fortunate. I think it's a very simple connection with real meaning and implication that deserves a bit of thought if you think otherwise.I'll just leave it there

Then why are you here Ryan? The computer you're using could be sold and the proceeds given to charity (or cell phone, laptop, iPad, or whatever you're using). I'm assuming you use some version of Flight Simulator? Why don't you sell it, along with all your peripherals and donate the proceeds to charity? Surely you don't "absolutely need" those things. Why don't you stop your contribution to the "death of those less fortunate" and go live off the land? Obviously I don't know what posessions you have, but I'm assuming that all but those absolutely necessary for life will be sold with the proceeds given to those less fortunate, correct?