But if you fly your recovery as in the first quoute you WILL die!!vololiberista

Oh my god ! No, no ! :( Boy, am I glad this is only a game...Bruno

A Cessna and a 747 jet are both aeroplanes. i.e. they both rely on wings to fly.

:( To say that a C172 is the same as a 747, and then say their only differences are the amount of thrust generated, their weight, their size, you have just named THREE of the four forces at work on an airplane. I will add the fourth, that those aircraft have differently shaped wings, which have different lift characteristics, more forward camber, the winglets, swept back et al.You really think that if you learn to fly one airplane you are thus immediately qualified to fly every single plane available? Because they all have wings and use Barnoulli's Principle to fly? Should call RSR and say to stop the press on the manuals, as I already have plenty of paperwork on how to fly his JS4100 so I dont need to know how to fly the 737.I apologize to anyone who may get caught up in this crossfire, but mr V's abrassiveness has got me responding in a manner I am not comfortable with, but we are all Sim Aviators here, and this thread was started by one who wanted help to learn manual landings and not rely on autoflight, a topic I love to help with, as I find it very sad to hear when fellow simmers feel enslaved by the autopilot and FMS, and handle when new routes or STARS get thrown their way on VATSIM.There is no need to come on here and say this crazy stuff, saying how us American pilots are somehow not properly trained, that everysingle person, and most of us I think are either in Commercial Aviation or know those who are in, so we are not pulling things out of thin air, that the manners in which it seems the best way to fly an ILS, RNAV1 or whatever IAP you are perforing are going to result in us killing ourselves and our passengers.My suggestion, go back and read up on a text book or two.Sorry for posting this, but it just hit critical mass here.

Hi,To "throw my hat in the ring", vololiberista is absolutely correct.Whilst *TO AN EXTENT* speed is controlled by POWER (throttle), the correct method is to use small pitch inputs to correct speed, and only adjust power when you want to climb, descend or level off. Even Airbus uses a soft-cruise mode where it will make small pitch changes (and thus make small altitude changes) before it will adjust the power. ;)On "the heavies" it is standard practise to LEAVE THE THROTTLES ALONE if you get roughly the correct power, and just adjust the glide WITH PITCH. If you keep adjusting the power, you'll never find a trimmed condition for the aircraft and thus you'll never find a stabilized approach.Speed is a REFERENCE, it is not an absolute figure.There are two types of instrument on a flight deck: PERFORMANCE instruments and CONTROL instruments.CONTROL INSTRUMENTS:* ADI* RPM/Engine thrust instrumentsPERFORMANCE INSTRUMENTS:* Airspeed* Altimeter* Vertical Rate* Turn Co-ordinator* Heading indicatorThe difference between the two?CONTROL instruments are what you change (pitch/roll/yaw and thrust), whilst the PERFORMANCE INSTRUMENTS then tell you the EFFECT of those changes on the aircraft.NEVER CHASE AIRSPEED WITH POWER, and NEVER CHASE PERFORMANCE INSTRUMENTS IN GENERAL. If you do this, you're doing it wrong. If you are flying a glide slope, get the aircraft approximately set up at the correct speed and rate of descent, then make small corrections using PITCH. If you are using power, you got something wrong.I also agree with vololiberista in that a lot of people need to go read some books on aerodynamics.Think of it another way: if you were flying a glider, how would you deal with changes to the flight path and speed then?If you've got the money, I suggest finding a good flight school and getting some real instrument flying instruction.If you are having problems flying the ILS, sit back, take a break, and then try the following exercises:* First, altitude changes. Fly at 5000 ft, then climb at full power to 6000 ft then level off, maintaining a fixed airspeed the whole time. Now do the same for descents. Point of the exercise: combined pitch/power changes and smooth flying.* Next, make heading changes. First target small heading changes of 10 degrees, getting to 90 degrees or more. Within 20 degrees of the desired heading, start your roll out such that you are wings-level on heading. Do this whilst holding altitude and speed, and make climbing turns and descents, also at a constant speed.* Once you are good at the above, tackle the ILS again. Don't try intercepts greater than about 30 degrees until you can nail intercepting the ILS. Intercepting at 90 or more IS acceptable, but you must be on the ball! It is not illegal, poor airmanship etc.. to do this - just hard.* Fly proper circuits so you have a consistent set up. This can't be stressed enough. If you can't fly consistent circuits, start here instead.A good circuit would include takeoff to 1500 ft, accelerate to approach speed then roll to max angle permitted by the config to fly reciprocal heading to the runway (taking into account wind).Once abeam the threshold, time 45 seconds, then turn back inbound to the runway. Turning base, gear down and slow to Vref+whatever. Turning final, and BEFORE glide slope intercept, slow to final approach speed and set final approach flap. Make the turn from downwind to final in one turn. Adjust intercept heading to adjust for drift as necessary. You should aim to not fly through the extended center line. For extra points, attempt this turn from the upwind side of the approach with a crosswind directly across the runway at 30 kts.To avoid chasing the glide, and combined with good power management (i.e. not controlling speed with thrust!), the vertical rate required to hold a 3 degree glide is to take half your ground speed and multiply by 10. e.g. if your ground speed is 120 kts, half would be 60, times by 10 is 600, so the required rate of descent is 600 ft/min to maintain the glide.Once established, make very small pitch changes to hold the glide and DO NOT TOUCH THE THROTTLES unless you have a gross speed error, in which case you are NOT stabilized and should GO AROUND if below 1000 ft.

To say that a C172 is the same as a 747, and then say their only differences are the amount of thrust generated, their weight, their size, you have just named THREE of the four forces at work on an airplane. I will add the fourth, that those aircraft have differently shaped wings, which have different lift characteristics, more forward camber, the winglets, swept back et al.

I don't see anyone mentioning a more critical factor (and not very well simulated in FS): INERTIA! Get a real 747 going down with a high vertical rate when slow and you've got a smoking hole. Shape of the wings is largely irrelevant (and their differences are beyond the current discussion without derailing into aerodynamic theory). All the pilot needs to be concerned with is angle of attack - it will get you killed if not respected. Roll angle can affect AoA hence the roll angle limits in certain configs. Refer to many books on aerodynamics to learn why. To suggest the shape of the wing is why you fly the two aircraft differently is just silly. You can fly them both the same way perfectly safely. You can also fly them both in ways that will kill you.Best regards,Robin.

Just use the ignore feature if a user irritates you. It will save you much grief in the long run :( On a different note, inducing drag by increasing the angle of attack will slow down an airplane alot quicker than reducing the power. I'm not saying which method is the correct method to fly, I'm just stating the obvious.

Funny, this discussion...Say I sit in a GA plane and want to climb by 2000ft. What do I do? Pull the yoke to climb, and adjust the throttle for climb speed. I don't push the throttle, wait for my plane to accelerate, for the wings to produce more lift to take me higher.Nothing else in an airliner.. Descend the same- push the yoke for the desired attitude and adjust throttle to keep desired speed.. depending on the aircraft you pull the throttle first so that you gain too much airspeed in the first seconds, but afterwards you will correct it again a bit to keep your descend speed. But all in all you can't say in general that throttle only controls speed and pitch climb/descend or which-way-ever around. There are so many factors like weight, weather, drag, configuration, AOA etc that all inputs have to be combined to get the desired result.

Think of it another way: if you were flying a glider, how would you deal with changes to the flight path and speed then?

Regarding the approach, you fly a steady approach, usually at best-gliding-speed, aiming behind the TDZ, and then place it on the numbers using speedbrakes/ sideslip.

Funny, this discussion...Say I sit in a GA plane and want to climb by 2000ft. What do I do? Pull the yoke to climb, and adjust the throttle for climb speed. I don't push the throttle, wait for my plane to accelerate, for the wings to produce more lift to take me higher.Nothing else in an airliner.. Descend the same- push the yoke for the desired attitude and adjust throttle to keep desired speed.. depending on the aircraft you pull the throttle first so that you gain too much airspeed in the first seconds, but afterwards you will correct it again a bit to keep your descend speed.

I don't know what GA planes you fly, but I where I fly (and where many others I am friends with fly), you set power to a predetermined setting and then fly the speed. To climb, power goes to full, and pitch controls airspeed. The same is for a descent. I have always been taught (in a Skyhawk) to trim for 90 kts in the descent and then use power to give you the rate you need. (usually the bottom of the green arc)

I have always been taught (in a Skyhawk) to trim for 90 kts in the descent and then use power to give you the rate you need. (usually the bottom of the green arc)

BEWARE WHAT YOU ARE DOING HERE!!!!You are still flying speed with PITCH, only the aircraft is trimmed thus not requiring your input. You reduce power, so the rate of descent must increase to hold the speed. The opposite is true for an increase in thrust.More simply: A climb is converting excess thrust to altitude.

On a different note, inducing drag by increasing the angle of attack will slow down an airplane alot quicker than reducing the power. I'm not saying which method is the correct method to fly, I'm just stating the obvious.

There is no substitute for better planning. :)Best regards,Robin.

Gotta agree with Robin,My flight instructors always taught me to pitch for glide speeds, to stabilize an approach with a single throttle setting and pitch for the desired speeds. For instance, when you drop flaps in the Cessna the nose wants to come up and the speed wants to go down - I was taught not to increase throttle in response, but to instead maintain speed with the yoke. I have half a thousand flight hours now, I've worked for over a year in an A320 Level-7 FFS, and I've sat in the instructors seat on some short airline flights on the B1900D where I could see the entire flightdeck. I haven't noticed anyone flying differently.Then again, the Russians land their planes nosewheel first - so it's hard to know who's right anymore. :(

This is great, a bunch of FS geeks flaming each other over something trivial, I find the best way to fly an approach is to use a combination of thrust and pitch control to maintain an appropriate descent rate, towards the end of an approach the aircraft has a much higher angle of attack so it is important to keep adjustments smooth and precise, otherwise you will make a mistake.Seriously though, getting fired up at someone just gives them what they want, it's called trolling, when someone tries to do it ignore them and make a fool of them. Luke Stevens, YSSY

Luke,I can't say I've seen any flaming in this thread yet. I always thought things like this were typical debates held almost anywhere: especially on a discussion forum for virtual pilots. According to the joke "How can you tell a pilot is at a bar?", we're not the most modest of groups.Especially in the face of such a good question, like "how do you land an airplane?" :(

This is great, a bunch of FS geeks flaming each other over something trivial

Actually, it isn't as trivial as you may think. People can (and do) take what they learn to do on their flight sim into the real world.Worse, there is much bad information out there (just look at this thread!). FS is quite a flawed sim, and is no good for flight training. It can't even be used for instrument training as there are flaws in the ground speed, mach and density altitude computations (get an E-6B and check for yourself!).I'm sorry you think we're "a bunch of FS geeks flaming each other over something trivial" but some of us have real-world knowledge and experience, whilst others only appear to have but don't and consequently write a load of crap on a subject that some of us can't stand and must correct to benefit everyone.There is no room for BS or ego in aviation.Best regards,Robin.

Just use the ignore feature if a user irritates you. It will save you much grief in the long run :(

Yhea you are certainly right on that one.

For some reason I am reminded of a country song my grandpa used to play, which contained the passage " A panel of experts can shout all night, and never figure out which one is right..."Seriously though, the debate here has been entirely civil and very informative, so I for one don't see any "flaming" going on. Interestingly, this same exact debate, about pitch versus power on finals, was thrashed out in a REAL pilots forum a few months back, and it ran into many, many pages crammed with insightful, persuasive arguments and equally plausible rebuttals.I finally came to a conclusion that a subtle, almost subconsciously applied combination of pitch AND power is used to stabilize descent rate on landing approaches, and that pilots are grouped into two slightly overlapping schools of thought on the exact proportion of each variable that they consider appropriate.Tony Selario

For me, I learned best by having the auto pilot intercept the localiser, set flaps to 30 for landing, gear down, and have the AP trim out to follow the glideslope. Then I disconnect the AP and AT around 2500 feet, and just use a combination of pitch changes and throttle input to keep the same glideslope. Always helps to have an ILS tuned in so I know if I'm still on the numbers. Then it's just using crabbing techniques you pick up by using the rudders to point your nose in the direction of the wind.

some of us have real-world knowledge and experience, whilst others only appear to have but don't and consequently write a load of crap on a subject that some of us can't stand and must correct to benefit everyone.Best regards,Robin.

Robin,And, apparently, some seem to be quite happy to join Vololiberista in the "DO WHAT I SAY OR YOU'LL DIE" club...Don't know what you do in a Cessna, but, unless I missed something bigtime, when flying an ILS approach in full automatic mode in a airliner - real or sim - , it's : - speed = Vref + x = autothrottle - glide slope = pitch = autopilot(s) Granted, with digital controls there are many ways to dampen, or modify the basic control laws but the basic operation is there. And, unless I missed something, in this thread or elsewhere (and yes, believe me, most of us read a lot of technical stuff, and listen aroud them), this is the way things are done and nobody has explained why you should do differently when switching to manual.BrunoPS : (just to complement what was written elsewhere in this thread) : another difference between GA piston engine planes and turbine-powered airliners : spool-up/down time.