For climbs/descents it is pitch THEN power. You can do it the other way but it is not the correct technique.If you are carrying excess speed during an approach and think you can just bleed it off in the flare I can tell you I won't be flying with you! You will be eating runway like no tomorrow if you think you're going to hold off for the speed, whilst excess speed itself may result in an over run if you're on the limit (but legal) in terms of landing distance.Best regards,Robin.

For climbs/descents it is pitch THEN power. You can do it the other way but it is not the correct technique.

Oh yeah? I guess I was taught incorrectly from the very beginning of my 20+ year GA flying career. And should pitch lead the power by 1 sec, 2 sec or 1/10 of a second?And by the way, is simultaneous application of both power and pitch wrong too? Statements like the above long ago made this whole thread descend into irrelevancy. :(

If you are carrying excess speed during an approach and think you can just bleed it off in the flare I can tell you I won't be flying with you! You will be eating runway like no tomorrow if you think you're going to hold off for the speed, whilst excess speed itself may result in an over run if you're on the limit (but legal) in terms of landing distance.

speed upto Vref + 20 is okay if AT is planned to be disconnected, flare should not be extended beyond the touch down zone under any circumstances, Well! if your above paragraph refers to my post, then this is what I read about B737. I meant wind corrected approach speed or wind correction (sorry if excess speed was taken in any other meaning). Anyway, I wouldn't dare land my plane beyond the touchdown zone, infact boeing recommends high speed firm touchdown within this instead of long flare to bleed any "excess" speed. From about time one takes aircraft manual to touchdown is a few good seconds where its possible to kill those few extra knots by playing with power, Pitch I believe is to keep aircraft on the flight path not for speed.B h a s k a r - K r i s h n a

For climbs/descents it is pitch THEN power. You can do it the other way but it is not the correct technique.Best regards,Robin.

Robin -Help me out here...not sure I understand the concern about pitching up before applying power...why not do them simultaneously? When flying an approach in an airliner in FSX, if I want to go around my left hand will be pitching the nose up with the yoke while my right hand applies power with the throttle. What value is there in waiting to establish pitch attitude before moving the throttle? All -SInce this thread started, I've begun to look at how I fly in FSX. Here's what I've observed about myself:- In the default Cessna 172, MAAM DC-3s, and PMDG Beech 1900C I fly almost exclusively by predetermined power settings and airspeeds. I fly the airspeed by pitch and make small changes to my predetermined power setting to "fine tune" the performance I want.- In jetliners (QualityWIngs 757 and PMDG 747) I find that I control my climb/descent rate with pitch angle and manage airspeed with the throttles. I have a general idea where the throttle lever needs to be but I keep one eye on the PFD...the airspeed trend vector on the airspeed tape helps with this. With practice I've been able to fly very nice, stabilized approaches with relatively low workload from 1000' down to the threshold.Works for me :)

Robin -Help me out here...not sure I understand the concern about pitching up before applying power...why not do them simultaneously? When flying an approach in an airliner in FSX, if I want to go around my left hand will be pitching the nose up with the yoke while my right hand applies power with the throttle. What value is there in waiting to establish pitch attitude before moving the throttle? All -SInce this thread started, I've begun to look at how I fly in FSX. Here's what I've observed about myself:- In the default Cessna 172, MAAM DC-3s, and PMDG Beech 1900C I fly almost exclusively by predetermined power settings and airspeeds. I fly the airspeed by pitch and make small changes to my predetermined power setting to "fine tune" the performance I want.- In jetliners (QualityWIngs 757 and PMDG 747) I find that I control my climb/descent rate with pitch angle and manage airspeed with the throttles. I have a general idea where the throttle lever needs to be but I keep one eye on the PFD...the airspeed trend vector on the airspeed tape helps with this. With practice I've been able to fly very nice, stabilized approaches with relatively low workload from 1000' down to the threshold.Works for me :)

To Matt,- to your first point : I think if you look just a couple of posts above, you'll find the answer to the question you're asking from Robin ie you're never in trouble if you control : first pitch - and then power (think of the risk if you did the reverse in a go-around : the plane might continue right into the ground). In all cases, it gives better control of the trajectory.- to your second point : That's interesting. AFAIAC, I only fly ultralights (and, very rarely GA planes), but everyone I know that flies airliners, GA planes and ultralights use only one method : speed with the throttle - and wouldn't want to change method when they change aircraft type.To Michael : Pilot training changes in time. For example, one of the (retired) captains I talked to (about the way to control speed with either throttle or pitch) had started flying Viscounts and Caravelles in the late fifties/early sixties and finished his career in the 767 in the 90's. He told me that around the mid-sixties there had been a change (in France at least). Prior to the change, they used to teach to control speed with pitch. After that period, airline pilots were told to control speed with the throttle. The other captains in my club are younger and were all taught to control speed with the throttle from day one. I assume airline pilots in all western countries are taught the same way now.And as far as setting pitch first and then power, I believe instructors stress this point and want it to become a reflex in all situations. I THINK that if you only want to go from horizontal flight to climb, it is not dangerous to do the reverse (and to tell you the truth, a lot of GA or ultralight pilots do it this way) , but in most other altitude changes, it could (or would) be dangerous (see my go-around example above) and that's why instructors want this to become an automatism, a no-brainer, in all situations. Granted, the two actions can become almost simultaneous, but the basic actions are still : pitch, then power.To Robin : I think that sentences like : "if you do that, I wouldn't fly with you" (or other offensive sentences by others elsewhere in this thread) don't help.Bruno

Hi fencer, You seem to be keen on following rules, but unfortunatly you don't seem to have a corresponding grasp of how or why things work. Despite half this thread talking about energy, you still come out with "The fact is that setting pitch first and then power will never get you in trouble". That is not a fact, it is a fiction. "you're never in trouble if you control : first pitch -". Pitch up at critical airspeed and you stall. Do you not consider that trouble? Whats worse, you will be surprised by the stall because you believe that you are doing the right thing. If you follow memorised rules, you will get one wrong, that is human nature. If you try to fly memorised rules in critical situations, you increase the chances of error and you increase the consequences of error because you are thinking about why something didn't do what you expected instead of dealing with what it is doing. It requires more effort on the part of the instructor and the student to grasp the concept of energy management, but once understood, it is very much simpler to use and it covers all situations. There are only four forces acting on a plane so there are only four possible consequences of changeing a force; higher, lower, faster, slower. Work out which force will be changed by the action you want to take and you instantly know the consequence of that action. Decide which consequence you want and it is obviouse what you can do to acheive it. Going back to your example, On approach you find yourself low and slow. What happens if you pitch up? Giving out to people like Robin for being rude by saying they do not want to fly with you is slightly missing to point. I would suggest that even if you thought they were being offensive, it is still important to know why they don't want to fly with you.

The big issue when being told not to change power prior to pitch is for situations like Go-Around. You have a problem, you have to go around, and you punch it to GA power, you have just shrunk your window for success greatly. Not saying you will not be able to successfully pull the aircraft up back into the air, but you just added uncessesary risk. With approach, you never fly at VRef anyway, add on at least 5 knots, more so if the winds call for it, so if you need to go around, when you pitch up you wont kill all lift on the airfoil when you increase the AoA.The pitch before power is true, but common, you are going to do this at the same time, and if not, less than a second in doing so. In Jetliners you have to pilots, you as the PF will say, or even yell, GO AROUND!, the PNF will snap back on the A/T and hit the GA will you pull up.

[think of the risk if you did the reverse in a go-around : the plane might continue right into the ground

Imagine the risk if you've pitched up, and for some reason don't get the power - interesting!Also, what is the secondary effect of applying power? Now if I remember from my first flying lesson, wasn't it a pitch up??But I don't talk to too many airline pilots, so I wouldn't know.David

My understanding of landing is this:Yoke: maintains attitude and keeps wings levelRudder: maintains direction of flight Throttle: Controls glideslope (slightly high = decrease throttle; slightly low = increase throttle)Descent rate and speed are relative = -500 FPM will need slower IAS than -750 FPM; but, will require a higher throttle setting to maintainSmall corrections people!! Because you are maintaining a negative descent rate, speed changes will be minimal and will change to maintain desired FPM. Throttles are at a higher setting due to increased drag (flaps, gear) and; therefore, the engines (Jet) will respond quicker than when at a lower setting; minimising "jet lag" timings.By increasing and decreasing throttle, your are changing your descent rate due to speed i.e. higher speed = higher descent rate (for example, Cessna = -500 FPM at 80KIAS; 747 = -750 FPM at 145KIAS (approx) to maintain -3/-3.3 degree slope). The faster you go, the further you travel in distance, in time, and the faster your descent needs to be...hence using yoke to adjust your attitude as your angle of attack (direction of travel) will decrease with higher speed. This is why increasing throttle will correct for being too low on the ILS...the increase in throttle, without adjusting the attitude, will decrease your rate of descent and maintain your speed.As a practice to get used to this, get your PMDG 747 at 10,000 feet, straight and level flight, clean config. Raise the nose to +5 degrees, then select 50% N1 - then don;t touch it again until you select Flap and Gear. Set your FPV for the PFD and watch your direction of flight. Watch the speed and vertical speed gauges. Whatever happens, maintain +5 degrees pitch and wings level. Watch your speed, which will decrease but then 'stabilise' around 193 KIAS. Now look at all your gauges. You should be nose up, descending and maintaining speed, requiring little yoke adjustments to maintain wings level and +5 degrees ANU = stabilised approach. Make small corrections as you descend to keep nose at +5 degrees and wings level. At 2,000 feet, add 5 degrees of Flap and turn into the wind. Watch the speed and vertical speed. Maintain +5 degrees pitch at ALL times. At 1500 feet, lower flap to 25 and drop the gear. Now, as you have increased the drag dramatically, it is time to touch the throttle. Maintain 145 KIAS and select full flap. Watch the vertical speed. You should have averaged -1000FPM all the way down. At 500 feet, increase throttle to MAX and hold on...raise flaps and gear; but, still maintain +5 degrees pitch. The performance will be impressive!! Now, climb back to 10,000 feet and do exactly the same again; but, this time, select 58% N1...As for a Go Around, by increasing thrust you are reducing your descent rate, then pitching up to manage the acceleration, raising gear and flaps to ensure you don;t break them with increasing speed, which decreases drag, which will increase thrust, requiring throttle down to maintain or pitch up, you're now accelerating and climbing...:()When in straight and level flight (i.e. cruise), you would, I believe, pitch up, increase throttle to maintain speed, then trim for the attitude.

Hi fencer, You seem to be keen on following rules, but unfortunatly you don't seem to have a corresponding grasp of how or why things work. Despite half this thread talking about energy, you still come out with "The fact is that setting pitch first and then power will never get you in trouble". That is not a fact, it is a fiction. "you're never in trouble if you control : first pitch -". Pitch up at critical airspeed and you stall. Do you not consider that trouble? Whats worse, you will be surprised by the stall because you believe that you are doing the right thing.

To PaulHi Paul,1- danger of stalling : I think I already answered your question a few posts above :"There is no risk that setting pitch first might result in loss of energy or even a stall if the plane is at the correct speed (and AOA of course)."Just remember, you're supposed to fly at Vref+x (where x depends primarily on wind gusts). And Vref should be Vs times 1,3. Why would you get in a stall?Now I am not going to play the teacher with you because I remember asking the very same question when told that the rule was : 1 pitch and 2 power - with no exceptions... in normal flight conditions.Of course if - for whatever reason - you've left your speed drop to a dangerously low level, then you better shove that throttle forward (and, if you are high enough, push that stick forward) but I believe we are talking about normal flying conditions, aren't we?2- my reply to RobinI allowed myself that comment because, like other remarks made by other people in the same thread, they don't help. They sound like bar talk, or patronizing, and I think we are all better off if we manage to avoid them - commercial member or not. Now I don't know Robin and he doesn't know me either. So I am not going to allow myself to make comments about his flying skills. Is it too much to ask for the same respect in turn? And, by the way, the same applies to you when you write that "I don't seem to have a corresponding grasp on how or why things work". Thank you very much Paul, but if I am really so thick, why are you wasting your time with me? Especially asking questions that have already been answered a few lines above...To David,Hi David, I suppose by "not getting the power" you mean an engine failure ? Once again, it seems to me that, if you were flying at a correct speed, then you do what you were trained to do in case of engine failure. On a small plane, you'll push the stick forward to avoid a stall. In a (multi-engine) airliner ....I don't know for sure (although I think I have a pretty good idea...) but there are procedures to handle these situations.Sharing with others what you've learned is fun. But at his stage, I'd much rather have a real airline pilot take over.Bruno

Pitch + Power = Performance.The debate over which one to use first goes on and on but in the real world cockpit there is no separation. Final approach on instruments is a symphony where the pilot stays ahead of the airplane by responding to trends using pitch and power. I cannot imagine trying to separate the two.

Hi,

2- my reply to RobinI allowed myself that comment because, like other remarks made by other people in the same thread, they don't help. They sound like bar talk, or patronizing, and I think we are all better off if we manage to avoid them - commercial member or not. Now I don't know Robin and he doesn't know me either. So I am not going to allow myself to make comments about his flying skills. Is it too much to ask for the same respect in turn?

I only gained "Commercial Member" status because I was speaking on behalf of AirSimmer in a couple of threads, and the AVSIM staff made me a "Commercial Member" as a result (I have since left the company so that point is moot).I don't mean any disrespect to anyone, but correct technique is correct technique regardless of anything else. I do fly in real life (gliders mainly), and I'm acutely aware not to develop bad habits in the sim lest I transfer them to the real thing and kill myself.Besides flying MSFS I also fly Falcon 4.0 (AF and OF), DCS:W and DCS:BS. The latter two are extremely realistic and demand the highest flying standards otherwise you will become a smoking hole in no time. They are of sufficiently high standard you can use them for flight training on the respective types (and the reason they were developed in the first place). Frankly, the flight model of MSFS just doesn't cut the feeling of flying, though is still very good as a procedural trainer.I don't quite know what the reference to "correct AoA" is about - AoA integrates airspeed and flight path angle to tell you what the wing is doing. Up to the critical AoA, lift generated increases, but past the critical AoA (hint: don't get close!), lift falls off a cliff and you stall. All a stall is is loss of lift. How the aircraft reacts depends on the wing and the maneuver the aircraft was performing at the time. At this point I refer you to books on aerodynamics because I'll be here all day typing.Taking a point made further up about maintaining a constant PITCH ATTITUDE, and just altering speed, is quite a good way to demonstrate AoA. By eliminating a variable (pitch attitude) it is easier to see the effect of speed on the lift generated by the wing. CAVEAT: ASSUMING AN ANGLE OF INCIDENCE OF ZERO DEGREES, if the pitch attitude is +5 degrees, and AoA is 5 degrees, the aircraft will be in level flight. If AoA is 3 degrees, the aircraft is in a climb. If the AoA is 7 degrees, the aircraft is in a descent.There are several other things to understand, including effect of mass, and the relationship between speed, vertical acceleration and pitch rate.I could quite easily write a book on the subject, but I'll stop here. I really do suggest you get a book on aerodynamics and read it. Your questions will be answered as to why things are done the way they are.Best regards,Robin.

To PaulHi Paul,1- danger of stalling : I think I already answered your question a few posts above :"There is no risk that setting pitch first might result in loss of energy or even a stall if the plane is at the correct speed (and AOA of course)."Just remember, you're supposed to fly at Vref+x (where x depends primarily on wind gusts). And Vref should be Vs times 1,3. Why would you get in a stall?Now I am not going to play the teacher with you because I remember asking the very same question when told that the rule was : 1 pitch and 2 power - with no exceptions... in normal flight conditions.Of course if - for whatever reason - you've left your speed drop to a dangerously low level, then you better shove that throttle forward (and, if you are high enough, push that stick forward) but I believe we are talking about normal flying conditions, aren't we?2- my reply to RobinI allowed myself that comment because, like other remarks made by other people in the same thread, they don't help. They sound like bar talk, or patronizing, and I think we are all better off if we manage to avoid them - commercial member or not. Now I don't know Robin and he doesn't know me either. So I am not going to allow myself to make comments about his flying skills. Is it too much to ask for the same respect in turn? And, by the way, the same applies to you when you write that "I don't seem to have a corresponding grasp on how or why things work". Thank you very much Paul, but if I am really so thick, why are you wasting your time with me? Especially asking questions that have already been answered a few lines above...To David,Hi David, I suppose by "not getting the power" you mean an engine failure ? Once again, it seems to me that, if you were flying at a correct speed, then you do what you were trained to do in case of engine failure. On a small plane, you'll push the stick forward to avoid a stall. In a (multi-engine) airliner ....I don't know for sure (although I think I have a pretty good idea...) but there are procedures to handle these situations.Sharing with others what you've learned is fun. But at his stage, I'd much rather have a real airline pilot take over.Bruno

I think Robin would agree with me in thanking you for not playing teacher with us. The reason I keep "wasteing my time" as you put it is because we have lots of novices here who are trying to learn. When they read something like "1 pitch and 2 power - with no exceptions" from someone who appears to be an experienced member, they are not going to argue with it. No matter how wrong it is. Can you not see the difference between saying "The fact is that setting pitch first and then power will never get you in trouble." and saying "...if the plane is at the correct speed (and AOA of course)."? Put that the other way around and you will see how ridiculous it is. "...if the plane is at the correct speed (and AOA of course)" ..."setting the power first is bad because" Because what? It doesn't matter which you set first - if the plane is balanced! And if the plane is not balanced then your 'rule' not only does not apply, but potentially puts you at significant risk!There is no "(of course)" in critical situations. You know how something works or you don't, and if you don't then you should not put yourself in the position where other peoples lives depend on your knowledge. You have a perfectly good brain, and you have a perfectly good simulator. Use them. Try things out. If something is verboten then do it in the sim to see why. If you always do something a certain way, mix it up. Try to think what the consequences of doing it the wrong way are, then try it and see if you are right. When something happens that you didn't expect or don't understand, think about it. Find out about it. Learn something new! Repeating what you think you remember someone once telling you is getting tiring, espeacilly when what you are saying has been repeatedly corrected.

Of course, the FPV is a very useful tool to see the relationship between pitch, speed, wind and the Direction of Flight :(

Pitch then power makes no sense, if you are top of descent in a heavy jet, going .85, you roll back the throttles then pitch down.