During my first year of simming I often found it quite impossible to land the aircraft in the VC or 2d cockpit view. What I did was go into outside view, and view the aircraft from the tail and try to get the centerline between the main gears - and of course adjusting the pitch as needed. Have the Auto Throttle (AT) engaged untill 20-70 feet above the runway, and then disengage it and firmly place the throttles in the idle position. I found it much easier to land that way, but it didnt really help much in the VC (virtual cockpit) view. What I did then was to open a new view frame and have that show the aircraft from behind while I was flying in the VC. That way I could learn the connections with what I did in the cockpit and how it related to the rest of the aircraft. The last stage is of course to only fly in the VC view without these crutches.I also suggest saving a flight when you turn final for landing, so that you can restart a landing over and over and over again to pratice your techniques. Happy landings! :)

A Ryanair captain told me that they are not allowed to fly a 737NG with AT on during approach if you have disengaged the AP. Other 737 operators on the other hand, at least according to this thread, demands that AT is on even during manual flying. In that same thread someone states Boeings recommendation: "From the 737 FCTM: "To simplify thrust setting proceduers, AT use is recommended during T/O and CLB in either automatic or manual flight. During all other phases of flight AT use is recommended only when the autpilot is engaged.""

Why am I not surprised that Ryanair would have odd SOPs regarding the A/T?I try my best to mimic SOPs of a certain airline, and when I fly heavy stuff, I turn of the A/T around DH, and I leave on A/T in the MD80, as it will automatically idle the engines when I flare. This is done on all types of approaches, from ILS, to Non-Preciscion, to full out visuals, leaving the A/T makes it just one less thing to worry about, and you correct any Glideslope deviations with a little backpressure or push down a bit (emphasis on a bit). I would assume it to be perfectly acceptable if the pilot is having a rough day of it and deviates by over a dot on the glideslope to slap off A/T. And to coomment on takeoff procedures, every SOP I have seen, and I know Boeing recommends, which you have referred to, letting A/T take control and set the T/O power. The A/T is far more precise, is faster at getting to the T/O power, especially soif you are de-rating the T/O thrust. Not to mention it allows the two men up front to have their attention elsewheres, like ATC and getting the aircraft clean and on the departure route.

Another way of checking if things are going wrong or not: If the rwy is slowly rising in your field of view then you are sinking and need more power stabilising your AIS at the same time. Also the contrary applies if the rwy is sinking you are not descending fast enough and need to apply more power. Also remember the difference between a visual approach and an instrument approach. the UK CAA requires that a visual approach uses no reference to your instrument landing aids at all. Whereas for an instrument approach you should not use any outside reference flying solely on your instruments.Watch carefully the a/c trends and counteract them with very small control inputs. It's much easier in real life than in the sim!!!!vololiberista

Why am I not surprised that Ryanair would have odd SOPs regarding the A/T?

Because the crew along with the passengers have to pay to go to the toilet, and probably also have to pay for their own on board baggage aka pilot bags etc!!!!!

Because the crew along with the passengers have to pay to go to the toilet, and probably also have to pay for their own on board baggage aka pilot bags etc!!!!!

I guess they could always just go in their seats. But that would then make it Southwest Airlines :(

I guess they could always just go in their seats. But that would then make it Southwest Airlines :(

Clearly the origin of "Seat of the pants" flying!!vololiberista

Another way of checking if things are going wrong or not: If the rwy is slowly rising in your field of view then you are sinking and need more power stabilising your AIS at the same time. Also the contrary applies if the rwy is sinking you are not descending fast enough and need to apply more power.

I'm going to have to pull you over for a ticket Vololiberista, because what I HOPE you meant to say in the bolded text above is that descent rate SLOWS DOWN when you add more power on finals, while conversely reducing engine power INCREASES the rate of descent on landing approaches.RegardsTony Selario

Why am I not surprised that Ryanair would have odd SOPs regarding the A/T?

It's the 737 SOP used by NZ based airline that I am involved with through work, I'm not sure that it is too prevalent, but it's not all that odd: I'm told that the rationale - in part - is that it leaves minimal risk of confusion at times of high workload. It would be an extreme example, but a crew that thought the AT was engaged when it actually wasn't could end up in a low-energy situation pretty quickly on approach, especially when lowering gear, dropping flaps and intercepting the glideslope in relatively quick succession, speed can bleed off mighty quickly in that confguration. At least by having an 'all or nothing' philosophy you are ALWAYS subconsciously aware that you are either hand flying or manipulating the automatics.Tying this back into a flightsim context, most of us have non-motorized throttle quadrants. This means that invariably the hardware throttle position won't correlate with the actual throttle setting in the sim, when you disconnect. I always pull the autothrottle at the same time as the autopilot and well before the flare, so that I can get the hardware and the simulation "back in sync" again before I have to make that carefully timed cut to idle.Most of us will have had the embarrassing experience of disconnecting the AT on short final with our hardware still pushed fully forward from takeoff. Even if you get the throttle back to mid-range quickly, a small blip of power at that stage is not ideal, to say the least, and it can make for a really dicey manoeuvre if you really stuff it up and don't get the throttle back fast!

Most of us will have had the embarrassing experience of disconnecting the AT on short final with our hardware still pushed fully forward from takeoff. Even if you get the throttle back to mid-range quickly, a small blip of power at that stage is not ideal, to say the least, and it can make for a really dicey manoeuvre if you really stuff it up and don't get the throttle back fast!

You probably already read it but someone in one of the 737NG V2 threads suggested that PMDG should include a way of temporary indicating on the N1 what thrust your current throttle setting will produce. In that way you can adjust the throttle position before you disengage A/T and Ryan (Tabs) thought it was a cool idea that they would implement!

I'm going to have to pull you over for a ticket Vololiberista, because what I HOPE you meant to say in the bolded text above is that descent rate SLOWS DOWN when you add more power on finals, while conversely reducing engine power INCREASES the rate of descent on landing approaches.RegardsTony Selario

I would have thought that what I wrote was clear enough!! The basic function is that angle of attack cotrols airspeed. Throttle controls rate of climb or descent. Add to that the high momentum of jet tranports which would appear to contradict that statement. But given time it ends up the same. Of course in jet transports one doesn't have the time. You have to anticipate adding or reducing throttle. If you wait until it is needed it is already too late and you have to dig yourself out of the metaphoric hole. Anticipation is the name of the game.vololiberistaPS Due to the impecunious nature of my finances your fine will not be paid! :(

Now that I better understand your points, Vololiberista, the citation will not be issued. Besides, I forgot my ticket-book at the doughnut shop. I agree about the importance of pouring on the power ahead of the curve, before the localizer and glideslope bugs start to stray off center during ILS approaches in heavy airliners. I also noticed that the massive PMDG747s intertia meant having to make those pre-emptive power adjustments a good deal earlier for that behemoth, than was needed for the smaller LevelD767.I could ramble on for days about hand-flown landings, since that is mostly all I do in my FS9 sessions, but will refrain for now.Tony Selario

I would have thought that what I wrote was clear enough!! The basic function is that angle of attack cotrols airspeed. Throttle controls rate of climb or descent. Add to that the high momentum of jet tranports which would appear to contradict that statement. But given time it ends up the same. Of course in jet transports one doesn't have the time. You have to anticipate adding or reducing throttle. If you wait until it is needed it is already too late and you have to dig yourself out of the metaphoric hole. Anticipation is the name of the game.vololiberistaPS Due to the impecunious nature of my finances your fine will not be paid! :(

I used to think that too, but in fact it is only applicable to a gliding approach. A more flexible and self correcting technique is to "Aim for the landing point and control airspeed with power". Check out book two of Fly Better for more details.

I used to think that too, but in fact it is only applicable to a gliding approach. A more flexible and self correcting technique is to "Aim for the landing point and control airspeed with power". Check out book two of Fly Better for more details.

Angle of attack controls airspeed and thrust controls rate of climb or descent it is a scientific fact of aerodynamics. People get confused because one has an affect on the other. If I increase my thrust the pitch of the a/c will change slightly. If I change the pitch of my a/c then I will have to adjust the power slightly to maintain my trajectory. Try taking your little Cessna to a major international airport (assuming you can afford the landing fee) Due to trafic and separation considerations you will likely have to fly the glide at full throttle with a significant nose down attitude. I did it many years ago at Gatwick in a TB. It was interesting!vololiberist

Angle of attack controls airspeed and thrust controls rate of climb or descent it is a scientific fact of aerodynamics.

Well, angle of attack has both an effect on lift and drag, thus it has a say on airpseed and descent rate. Which is why you need more thrust to maintain speed while you lower flaps, which increase the angle of attack, so allow greater lift and lower the stall speed (which is a factor of weight and angle of attack, NOT speed). Also this : http://forum.avsim.n...ill-be-deleted/

For touchdown, at 50ft pull back just slightly to achieve about a 200fpm rate just before touchdown and hold it there until the mains touch

Pros don't do that. They do not target specific descent rate, they look at the pitch on the PFD and when they flare they target specific pitch attitude (5-7 deg depending on aircraft). I am amazed how simple question turned into opportunity for some to write whole essays. For example captain Alan Carter (Virgin Atlantic, the one featured on the ITVV video) when he lands the 747 his does it simply by going to idle and initiating the flare both at the same time at around 30 ft (though he is getting 'mentally' ready at about 50 ft). He pulls the nose to the desired pitch and holds it there and waits for the touchdown .. that's all there is to it.

I used to think that too, but in fact it is only applicable to a gliding approach. A more flexible and self correcting technique is to "Aim for the landing point and control airspeed with power". Check out book two of Fly Better for more details.

Exactly. In fact it is not "a more flexible and self correcting technique", it is "the only technique" you instructor will teach you.Talk to ANY pilot, commercial or not and they'll confirm the basic mantra : once the plane is in the final landing configuration, you control airspeed with power and rate of descent with the stick.Notable - and well known - exceptions are : - gliding approach (as you mentioned, I suppose you mean throttling down the engine to flight idle in short final). Some ultralight instructors recommend this method be used at all times. - carrier landing approach - when angle of attack controls airspeed and power (together with direct lift control in some planes) controls the descent rateBruno