Pitch then power makes no sense, if you are top of descent in a heavy jet, going .85, you roll back the throttles then pitch down.

Why? You should not be flying right next to the Vmo anyway. ATC tells you to get down, you get down. Worry about power when you are descending.

David,A transition from level flight into a climb normally combines a change in pitch attitude with an increase in power. If you attempt to climb just by pulling back on the controls to raise the nose of the aircraft, momentum will cause a brief increase in altitude, but airspeed will soon decrease. The amount of thrust generated by the engines for cruise at a given airspeed is not enough to maintain the same airspeed in a climb. Excess thrust, not excess lift, is necessary for a sustained climb. In fact, as the angle of climb steepens, thrust will not only oppose drag, but will increasingly replace lift as the force opposing weight. At the point where the climb becomes exactly vertical, weight and drag are opposed solely by thrust, and lift no longer acts to support the aircraft in flight. While Robin is right that you most certainly can (and usually do) pitch for best climb and set the throttle accordingly, it is the excess thrust that makes the climb happen.

Ken is right on with excess thrust makes the climb happen.

Pitch then power makes no sense, if you are top of descent in a heavy jet, going .85, you roll back the throttles then pitch down.

The same applies to descent as climb. Pitch, then power. Whilst you are descending, our good friend inertia appears once again and the aircraft will subsequently not react immediately. You don't, generally, decel whilst in the descent; you decel whilst level *then* descend.If we are getting specific about aircraft ops, you will find the aircraft decelerates before ToD (Airbus certainly does, and I think it is the same for other aircraft) so you will first reduce thrust, decel, then descend using pitch to hold the speed. You must also differentiate between flying an idle thrust descent and flying a shallower descent path requiring some amount of thrust. Once the aircraft is in the descent, if you're flying an idle descent path you will slowly retard the throttles to idle, but note that you will already be pitching over.On turboprop aircraft, it is fairly typical to engage IAS HOLD mode and use thrust to manage the descent rate/path once the aircraft is on the way down.e.g.* Near ToD, reduce thrust to decel to descent speed* Set the V/S to --1000 ft/min* When passing desired descent speed, press IAS HOLD* Use small thrust changes to regulate the vertical rate* Dial down the altitude and arm ALT HOLD mode.Jets tend to use either VNAV PATH (or equivalent) or IDLE THRUST descent modes, favoring IDLE THRUST for fuel consumption purposes.Best regards,Robin.

I think Robin would agree with me in thanking you for not playing teacher with us.

Hi Paul (and Robin)Are you sure you are not playing teacher on me, though?Robin writes : "I could quite easily write a book on the subject, but I'll stop here. I really do suggest you get a book on aerodynamics and read it". Well, thank you Mr. Professor, I had really NEVER though of doing this even once !Paul writes : "You have a perfectly good brain, and you have a perfectly good simulator. Use them" or : "Learn something new! Repeating what you think you remember someone once telling you is getting tiring, espeacilly when what you are saying has been repeatedly corrected." Thank you too, Doctor ! Most kind of you.Well, I'll tell both of you gentlemen what :1- I never practice in the simulator. I use it for fun - to simulate aircraft that I will never fly in real life : airliners mainly. I found that MSFS - for me at least - is not so good at simulating flight in a small plane. It's not bad but the feeling is different. 2- After more than 600 real hours - most of them in ultralights (lighter versions of LSAs, if you will) and the rest in GA planes - you may think that I am not willing to try anything new or fly with an instructor from time to time. ON THE CONTRARY. I found out, like many pilots, that I had to unlearn a few things from time to time. Nobody's perfect, especially me. But rather than play with a simulator, I am fortunate enough to be able to experiment in real life - with an instructor if need be.3- As far as PMDG or other airliner simulators, I happen to be in a flying club whose members include four captains (indluding two airline instructors) , and to fly with at least two others from other clubs. Now being with them does definitively NOT make an airliner expert out of me but, if ALL these gentlemen tell me that, for them : 3a - It's always : pitch angle THEN power, whether they fly a 777 or an ultralight3b - speed is primarily controlled by throttle (or autothrottle)then I am perfectly happy with that. Period. So, in summary, I am more than ready to listen to people I fly with - and to repeat to others in this forum - if they are interested - what I've been told by reliable, experienced professionals. I am less inclined to repeat what I read on the net, in this forum or in books by "web doctors and professors" ... even if, as Paul writes I am "repeatedly corrected" by them. Not that I don't listen at all though, but... As I see this is turning into a kind of flame war, I am going to sign off now.A very good day to you, gentlemen. And happy - and safe - flying, of course !Bruno

In fact, as the angle of climb steepens, thrust will not only oppose drag, but will increasingly replace lift as the force opposing weight.

I have not heard this, and at first reading, I am not sure this thought should ever cross one's mind while flying an airplane. Thrust as lift is used for Rocket Jets, not Turbofans. Now I know how Newton's Third Law, and that is a jet's exhaust is pointed downward, it will cause the opposing reaction upward, but I just dont think a pilot should ever think about adding thrust to create more lift. Thrust is always used to overcome drag, and as you pitch up, your angle of attack increases, and thus so does your drag, that is why you need more thrust, to overcome the increase in drag. This overcourse can be explained in an infintely more complicated way, talking about the higher you are the more power is required to be stored as potential engery, which is why less thrust is required on descent as this engery is used and is expressed as an increase in lateral velocity.

[...] I am not sure this thought should ever cross one's mind while flying an airplane. Thrust as lift is used for Rocket Jets, not Turbofans. [...]

Cras,I'm attending an airshow next weekend and I'm sure every pilot there - be them in F-16s or small props - is glad they know that higher pitch angles reduces the effectiveness of the lift component.A little extra knowledge is never a negative in aviation, or any field. :(

if ALL these gentlemen tell me that, for them : 3a - It's always : pitch angle THEN power, whether they fly a 777 or an ultralight

And by the way you never find me in this "ALL", and this applies probably to many of your former instructors. I have about 500 hrs in small GA aircraft (no ultralights) and can tell you that we were always taught to apply power first on smaller, lighter aircraft. Actually application of power alone (less or more) very often will initiate a climb or descend on it own - no active pitch change needed. This very often agrees with characteristics of smaller aircraft - say you are trimmed for straight, level 100 kts flight then you simply add power and you start climbing at 100 kts. Of course the world is not so perfect and some of your extra power will go into extra speed and some will go into vertical speed but as a first approximation say in Cessna 172 - most of that will go into vertical speed so you may need to adjust your pitch just a bit IF your intention is too carry the same 100 kts into climb. Also the reverse is true - just subtracting power immediately puts you in descend mode. In large transport aircraft the added power will mostly go into speed therefore mores significant change of pitch is required. But I am reading here so much BS from armchair pilots who never flew anything in real life dispensing idiotic "fixed rules" about what should be done first, etc - and makes me cringe reading all this disinformation.

A little extra knowledge is never a negative in aviation, or any field. :(

I agree with you 1000%. And my name is Scott btw.

Scott,Glad to have met you. Apologies for that.Ken

Hi Bruno,

Hi Paul (and Robin)Are you sure you are not playing teacher on me, though?

I'm simply trying to help others with their technique. No-one in particular - take my advice as you see fit. I was trying to help with the original topic, not give a lecture.My suggestion to get a book was meant in good faith, not point a finger and say "READ".@Michael: even a jet will exhibit that behavior - it just takes a couple of knots longer. Whilst I've no jet time, I know two people with a combined time of 67,000 hours who will tell you the same thing. Of course, if you wind in full power straight away, then you will get a large speed increase then a pitch up, and it will end up flying parabolic curves all the way to the stall if not corrected. If the aircraft has under-slung engines, the effect is even more drastic.This thread is going down faster than Titanic, so I think this is my last post on this topic.Best regards,Robin.

On any instrument approach, the best advice I was given in the real world applies to fs as well. USE THE FLIGHT DIRECTOR! fly it like the autopilot does until you go visual. Watch the trend indicators, and anticipate changes, but don't over correct. For a visual approach, it really is all by feel. Keep looking out that window, and back at the asi.

On any instrument approach, the best advice I was given in the real world applies to fs as well. USE THE FLIGHT DIRECTOR!

Don't follow it blindly though - it may be giving incorrect steering cues. Always cross check with raw data, and know your position!Air New Zealand - Bad ILS Data (Part 1 of 3):http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GelRBhJ4gmIBest regards,Robin.

^That is crazy that there's no clear way to tell that only part of the GS system is transmitting. Seems very dangerous that a malfunction where only the carrier wave is transmitting gets interpreted as a correct on-slope indication the whole time...

Indeed.The only way you could prevent this is to have mandatory monitoring during operation of the ILS system, and to switch it off if it can't be monitored or suffers a failure.Redundancy in the aircraft systems wouldn't help either as the signal itself is the problem.Another possible fix would be to transmit a signal in the second transmission that the ILS system of the aircraft looks for, and if it isn't valid, fail it.Best regards,Robin.

Well, despite your discussion, suprisingly I find myself performing better when I disconnect both autopilot and autothrottle somewhere at 2000 feet. Suprisingly, because then the throttle is one more factor to be controlled manually. But it makes up for the distraction caused by disabling A/T just on short final, when you need to stay really focused. It might be due to FSX nature as well as some addons. In CS 757 for example I am not able to assign A/T switch to any joystick button. Therefore I need to take my hands off the joystick and disable A/T using mouse in virtual cockpit. I find it very uncomfortable.I am still not confident whether it is correct procedure or not, in real life. But since you say some airlines do it exactly in this manner, I think it's acceptable.Cheers

You need to check out FSUIPC. I bought this solely for assigning reverse thrust to my pro flight yoke throttle. It does so much more you can get lost in the setup but once you get it how you like, it's worth (shhhh don't tell... but a lot more than it costs) every penny.A lot of what's been said here will help but why not make it easier for yourself and also more fun. Get trackIR or a yoke or at the least rudder pedals and you will find the immersion and better control makes the game a lot more fun. Save up and piece it together, since you have the stick I would get pedals. Changed Flight Sim for me forever. We're all different and like different things so do what you like and stick with it.