I have not heard this, and at first reading, I am not sure this thought should ever cross one's mind while flying an airplane. Thrust as lift is used for Rocket Jets, not Turbofans. Now I know how Newton's Third Law, and that is a jet's exhaust is pointed downward, it will cause the opposing reaction upward, but I just dont think a pilot should ever think about adding thrust to create more lift. Thrust is always used to overcome drag, and as you pitch up, your angle of attack increases, and thus so does your drag, that is why you need more thrust, to overcome the increase in drag. This overcourse can be explained in an infintely more complicated way, talking about the higher you are the more power is required to be stored as potential engery, which is why less thrust is required on descent as this engery is used and is expressed as an increase in lateral velocity.

Not obvious perhaps, but certainly correct. Thrust is not purely horizontal (think of the CV22 Osprey, or a Harrier Jump jet) and lift is not vertical. So as you increase your angle of attack, your thrust points up more and forward less and your lift points back more and up less.

Don't follow it blindly though - it may be giving incorrect steering cues. Always cross check with raw data, and know your position!Air New Zealand - Bad ILS Data (Part 1 of 3):http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GelRBhJ4gmIBest regards,Robin.

That is why ICAO stipulates that you always need a cross reference during ILS approach (marker or DME) :)Very interesting video, thanks for that sir.Best Regards,Bert Van bulck

Pitch then power makes no sense, if you are top of descent in a heavy jet, going .85, you roll back the throttles then pitch down.

Decreasing power before adjusting pitch at top of descent means less protection against stall as the speed vector is now pointing below the horizontal and the angle of attack is higher. Not a great idea if flying high (near the plane's ceiling) . For information, decreasing power before adjusting pitch - If flying in manual mode :- on a Boeing, effectively starts a descent (and some pilots do it, although they reduce speed VERY slowly and carefully). - on an Airbus, the autotrim will raise the nose and the plane won't descend (until you hit a limit and trigger TOGA LOCK etc...)But, in any case, always adjusting pitch before power (as a "no brainer" automatic process) ensures that ...1- your lift vector and your speed vector are pointing where you want them when you apply a power change.2- you don't think twice in an emergency and screw up at the wrong time.BrunoPS : In PMDG's 737, in automatic mode, it's interesting to just watch the flight director and engine displays at top of descent.

Very interesting video, thanks for that sir.Best Regards,Bert Van bulck

You're welcome!Best regards,Robin.

Decreasing power before adjusting pitch at top of descent means less protection against stall as the speed vector is now pointing below the horizontal and the angle of attack is higher. Not a great idea if flying high (near the plane's ceiling) . For information, decreasing power before adjusting pitch - If flying in manual mode :- on a Boeing, effectively starts a descent (and some pilots do it, although they reduce speed VERY slowly and carefully). - on an Airbus, the autotrim will raise the nose and the plane won't descend (until you hit a limit and trigger TOGA LOCK etc...)But, in any case, always adjusting pitch before power (as a "no brainer" automatic process) ensures that ...1- your lift vector and your speed vector are pointing where you want them when you apply a power change.2- you don't think twice in an emergency and screw up at the wrong time.BrunoPS : In PMDG's 737, in automatic mode, it's interesting to just watch the flight director and engine displays at top of descent.

How many times is it necessary to say you are wrong before you will accept the possiblity that you might have more to learn? If you pitch down before power down at TOD then you risk overspeed with no means to correct except to pitch up again.Please accept that you are wrong stop repeating this nonsense about pitch and power. As you don't believe me, why don't you try watching what the AP on the MD11 does as it approaches and passes TOD. 1) while straight and level at cruise speed, power is reduced. 2) Aircraft slows to descent speed. 3) power increased to maintain descent speed 4) descent initiated as TOD is passed. Please think very carefully before saying the MD11 does it wrong or the PMDG didn't model it right.

How many times is it necessary to say you are wrong before you will accept the possiblity that you might have more to learn? If you pitch down before power down at TOD then you risk overspeed with no means to correct except to pitch up again.Please accept that you are wrong stop repeating this nonsense about pitch and power. As you don't believe me, why don't you try watching what the AP on the MD11 does as it approaches and passes TOD. 1) while straight and level at cruise speed, power is reduced. 2) Aircraft slows to descent speed. 3) power increased to maintain descent speed 4) descent initiated as TOD is passed. Please think very carefully before saying the MD11 does it wrong or the PMDG didn't model it right.

Most if not all the addons I have simulate an AP in this manner, the engines are killed so speed is reduced, and once descent speed is acutally missed, I mean the plane is traveling slower than the calculated descent speed, then the AP will compensate with the vertical speed. If you are on a VNAV path descent, things get a bit different, as the AP will follow the vertical profile and adjust power with throttle accordingly. But look at how the Maddog works, you click DES NOW in the FMS, the engines are throttled back before descent. I think that is proper.Most Jetliners do not fly right at Vmo, but in somecases they do. Private Jets will haul &@($* right up the Vmo, sometimes ATC will tell you to fly at max speed for seperation, so just pointing the nose down with no regard to speed (which how to think of these things, to make it so instictive you do it in emergency situations) seems to add unneccesary risk, ie overspeed and the subequent fuselage damage you can expect from this situation.

Most if not all the addons I have simulate an AP in this manner, the engines are killed so speed is reduced, and once descent speed is acutally missed, I mean the plane is traveling slower than the calculated descent speed, then the AP will compensate with the vertical speed. If you are on a VNAV path descent, things get a bit different, as the AP will follow the vertical profile and adjust power with throttle accordingly. But look at how the Maddog works, you click DES NOW in the FMS, the engines are throttled back before descent. I think that is proper.Most Jetliners do not fly right at Vmo, but in somecases they do. Private Jets will haul &@($* right up the Vmo, sometimes ATC will tell you to fly at max speed for seperation, so just pointing the nose down with no regard to speed (which how to think of these things, to make it so instictive you do it in emergency situations) seems to add unneccesary risk, ie overspeed and the subequent fuselage damage you can expect from this situation.

Hi Scott, Apparently Paul gets very excited whenever he sees my signature so I won't answer to him any more (no disrespect here, just care for his health).But as an answer to your point - stated calmly (as always, but thank you anyway), let me just ask you this : who said you had to 1- adjust pich, 2- wait forever and let the speed build up un-necessarily, and 3- finally reduce power ?I guess it's just one smooth, almost simultaneous movement : pitch and then power. I don't know if automation - or the pilot - takes into account the spooldown time of the engines and therefore anticipates on the thrust reduction. But I know, there are even cases (see my example above - an airbus flown in manual mode) where thrust reduction alone will not even result in any loss of atlitude. You'll need to change that pitch first.Bruno

^That is crazy that there's no clear way to tell that only part of the GS system is transmitting. Seems very dangerous that a malfunction where only the carrier wave is transmitting gets interpreted as a correct on-slope indication the whole time...

While I was doing my IFR training, it was pointed out to me that, on a rare approach, you can get weird reflections off an ILS that could cause you do think a 6 degree and not 3 degree path was indicated. My instructor suggested that it is always best to do, as these guys did, a cross check against another form of navigation to see if the altitude you're at is consistent with the altitude that you should be. You can use a DME like they did, an intersection/fix on the approach, or even the outer marker if that's all you have and there is one.

Hi Scott, Apparently Paul gets very excited whenever he sees my signature so I won't answer to him any more (no disrespect here, just care for his health).But as an answer to your point - stated calmly (as always, but thank you anyway), let me just ask you this : who said you had to 1- adjust pich, 2- wait forever and let the speed build up un-necessarily, and 3- finally reduce power ?I guess it's just one smooth, almost simultaneous movement : pitch and then power. I don't know if automation - or the pilot - takes into account the spooldown time of the engines and therefore anticipates on the thrust reduction. But I know, there are even cases (see my example above - an airbus flown in manual mode) where thrust reduction alone will not even result in any loss of atlitude. You'll need to change that pitch first.Bruno

I have very limited knowledge in how Airbus' operate, but that limited knowledge jives with what you just said. Change of power would result in that trimmer to compensate. Not sure what would happen over time in those conditions.As far as your main point, I am not sure if anyone intentionally said that, and I think this whole thread has fallen into a bit of a rut as it were. There are fundamentals that are good to have engraved in your mind, so these are the things you do in case of emergency. For something to be valid in an emergency and become a matter of instinct, then the situation of the matter has to be neglected. The plane needs a change in attitude in an emergency (like a go around, or TCAS bells yelling at you), you want the instinct to kick in that will result in safe changes that will solve more problems than create. However, you are a human pilot, you have the luxury of looking out the window, looking at the primary and standby instruments. Stepping away from the precedent established in this thread about textbook flying, this is how I fly in FSX, (alas, I cannot fly a B767 in the realworld). When at TOD, I will power the turbines down to establish descent speed and then try to maintain that with vertical speed. Should that require excessive vertical speed, (something over 3500 feet min-1), then I will supply thrust. Since that is how I fly, that is how I have the autopilot fly. I often use the FLCH, or the IAS modes of Autoflight.Now there are times when the arrival and/or approach is a very specific vertical profile, in Tx, high congestion, or an RNAV approach (which I have come quite fond of flying), then it turns into pitch then power, as it is the profile that is vital to seperation and safety. And I have autoflight behave the same way (which in VNAV path this is how it works), pitch first, then adjust power to match the proper speed.When landing an ILS approach (which I still do from time to time), I find the key is trim above all else. I will sometimes if I am feeling overworked (quite often in big planes) will leave the A/P on till gear down and let it establish localizer and G/S capture (and this is not autopilot crutch here, this is real world use), and then when the gear goes down I take control. I find if my corrections to maintain the G/S require too much pressure, I will counter that with trim, not much mind you. I never touch the throttle, leaving A/T on all the way to about 50 feet on the radio altimeter. On the Maddod MD-80 I will never turn off the A/T unless the situation calls for it (which I think I have done once in my last ten or so flights on that plane), as the MD-80 will retard the throttles to idle onces I start the flare. Boeings however, I need to tell the FO ( I use FS2Crew) to kill A/T and I then may make one or two very minor adjustments, and idle down, aim for my landing pitch, and landing the aircraft. Now I guess the thing to take away from this, is that in standard operations, either will work, sometimes either is called for. You hit DESNOW on the Level D 767, the plane will pitch down to a vertical speed of 1200 feet min-1 and adjust power accordingly until capturing the VNAV Path sometime down the route. In the Maddog, it will kill the throttle and slow down first, then being a descent, calculating a new VNAV Path, then try to capture that all the way down. As I have not had the chance to fly a B767 or Super 80 in the real world, I rely a lot of what I know on what I can read in terms of material in books, and the interwebs, and then putting a degree in trust that these planes are properly simulated (to an extent), also talking with other real world pilots I know.

If you pitch down before power down at TOD then you risk overspeed with no means to correct except to pitch up again.

Let's not get into mach tuck. :PThis thread is going nuts now. :DBest regards,Robin.

If, by design or error during final approach, the airspeed is allowed to decrease such that it nears the stall speed to within too close of a margin, measured power increments would be the safest way to reduce the rate of descent, since attempting to do so by pulling the nose up COULD trigger a stall condition that unravels faster than the pilot's ability to take corrective action.Tony Selario

With the edit button only slightly expired, may I add this other important consideration I forgot to mention in the above post.In stormy weather final approaches, characterized by rapidly shifting crosswinds, headwinds and tailwinds, disengaging both the auto-throttle AND auto-pilot before 1000feet AGL erases that small element of doubt regarding just how adequate those auto-flight control-loops really are, in compensating for unpredictably wild airspeed and attitude fluctutions - by transfering FULL instantaneous throttle application authority AND pitch control to the pilot in those critical moments when distracting button pushes are best minimized. RegardsTony Selario

I have very limited knowledge in how Airbus' operate, but that limited knowledge jives with what you just said. Change of power would result in that trimmer to compensate. Not sure what would happen over time in those conditions. .../...

Hi Scott,In an Airbus (flown in manual mode), I understand that, unless the pilot used the stick to change pitch (ie lower the nose), there are plenty of protections that would take over to avoid a stall (TOGA LK, etc.)Don't know about the MD80 and can't comment about the way you manage descent in a 767 - although I understand (and agree with) most of what you are saying.My only reservation (and I think I mentioned that much earlier in this thread) is about taking AT off as low as 50 ft. My understanding is : below a certain height (or altitude), you don't change ANYTHING in the plane's configuration and concentrate on flying - or monitoring. In an Airbus, for example at, say 1000 ft (or whatever value is valid), it's flap 3 or 4, gear down, N1 above 40%, speed and trajectory under control or you must go-around.So I'm pretty sure that turning AT (or Autothrust in an Airbus) OFF that low, is a no-no. I understand it probably makes flying the sim easier but I don't think it's realistic.Bruno

Hi Scott,In an Airbus (flown in manual mode), I understand that, unless the pilot used the stick to change pitch (ie lower the nose), there are plenty of protections that would take over to avoid a stall (TOGA LK, etc.)Don't know about the MD80 and can't comment about the way you manage descent in a 767 - although I understand (and agree with) most of what you are saying.My only reservation (and I think I mentioned that much earlier in this thread) is about taking AT off as low as 50 ft. My understanding is : below a certain height (or altitude), you don't change ANYTHING in the plane's configuration and concentrate on flying - or monitoring. In an Airbus, for example at, say 1000 ft (or whatever value is valid), it's flap 3 or 4, gear down, N1 above 40%, speed and trajectory under control or you must go-around.So I'm pretty sure that turning AT (or Autothrust in an Airbus) OFF that low, is a no-no. I understand it probably makes flying the sim easier but I don't think it's realistic.Bruno

To be honest I was unsure when I flip off the A/T in the 767/747 and I tried to guess when I did so. I am not sure if it makes sense but I fly so much based on routine and checklists (thanks to FS2Crew for that), however, I just did a flight in the 767 and I found that I flipped off the A/T more or less around the DH. I turn off Autopilot around the time I lower the gear, I do this due to some info from talking to real world pilots, where they generally mark that as the time they being to fly the plane by hand. In some cases, I delay that to final flap setting, but well before DH, and a bit before I knock off A/T. Flying the 767 I paid attention to where I was at 50 ft, and yes, that is too close to the TDZ to leave on the A/T.

Hi Scott,In an Airbus (flown in manual mode), I understand that, unless the pilot used the stick to change pitch (ie lower the nose), there are plenty of protections that would take over to avoid a stall (TOGA LK, etc.)Don't know about the MD80 and can't comment about the way you manage descent in a 767 - although I understand (and agree with) most of what you are saying.My only reservation (and I think I mentioned that much earlier in this thread) is about taking AT off as low as 50 ft. My understanding is : below a certain height (or altitude), you don't change ANYTHING in the plane's configuration and concentrate on flying - or monitoring. In an Airbus, for example at, say 1000 ft (or whatever value is valid), it's flap 3 or 4, gear down, N1 above 40%, speed and trajectory under control or you must go-around.So I'm pretty sure that turning AT (or Autothrust in an Airbus) OFF that low, is a no-no. I understand it probably makes flying the sim easier but I don't think it's realistic.Bruno

Hey Bruno,It's 1000ft Stable IFR & 500ft stable if VFR on the A320, if you used Autothrust on approach you should be starting to retard the T/L at 50 feet so no point completely disconnecting the A/THR at that point