Hi Mike,Are you a real liner ? Good news , your help and point of view are deeply appreciated.Cheers

Hi Mike,Are you a real liner ? Good news , your help and point of view are deeply appreciated.Cheers

So do  you reject everyone else's help and point of view?  :(

Trust me, I will be more than happy to admit I am wrong but in this moment I can't because also you can't state it will be a simulation. We are on the same boat and both of us can't proof his own feelings.We only have those videos to speak on and honestly I didn't see a single tiny ounce of simulation over there. Just a colored biplane and nothing more. I was dreaming about huge check lists to fill.......I have a yellow submarine instead.Anyway of course, if a simulation will be released I will be the first one to publicly apologize admitting I was wrong.

Sure, I know as much as you do. But I read the following in the FAQ section of the official Flight site: The new “Microsoft Flight” retains the full fidelity simulation longtime fans have come to expect while offering all players a whole new look and feel. I read Flight will be a simulator at least as much as FSX is. Have you read that too? If so you must interpret the words slightly different from me :)

Sure, I know as much as you do. But I read the following in the FAQ section of the official Flight site: The new “Microsoft Flight” retains the full fidelity simulation longtime fans have come to expect while offering all players a whole new look and feel. I read Flight will be a simulator at least as much as FSX is. Have you read that too? If so you must interpret the words slightly different from me :)

Microsoft Flight FAQ quote: We believe the simplicity of “Microsoft Flight” perfectly captures that vision while welcoming the millions of existing Flight Simulator fans.How do we interpret the word "simplicity" in this instance? The problem with the FAQ section is the wording is not as straightforward as it could (or should) be. Maybe the lack of precise information is because the program is at a very preliminary state. I wouldn't get too dependent on what Microsoft says at this very early point in Flights development.The real proof of what Microsoft Flight is or isn't will only occur when people start installing it on their computers and see how the Microsoft claims for Flight stack up to reality.Regards, Mike Mann

Microsoft Flight FAQ quote: We believe the simplicity of “Microsoft Flight” perfectly captures that vision while welcoming the millions of existing Flight Simulator fans.How do we interpret the word "simplicity" in this instance?

That statement was referring to the new name, not the product itself. It was also immediately followed by the comment that it will retain the full fidelity simulation.Besides, I think everyone could agree that there are areas of FSX that could be simplified without affecting the simulation aspects of the product at all. For instance: not having to tweak settings to get reasonable performance, easier ways to connect and play games in multiplayer, a better experience for installation of add-ons, etc.

So do you reject everyone else's help and point of view? :(

Of course I don't reject them, but a real liner point of view is by definition more accurate than a simmer.Regarding MS words... I do not trust them, I still remember their words about W2000 or Vista...... and I am global network admin -

urbandictionary has 5 definitions for linerAnd none of them seem to apply, except maybe for defition 1 but I can't imagine that's what’s meant.

Dumb a**, Complete and utter moron has no common sense and can not remember thier first 2 years of highschool

Dare I ask, what’s a "liner"? :(

In aviation slang, 'a liner' means flying for the maximum distance you can, used in the form of 'doing a liner'. It is supposedly from the term 'linear'.I'd take a guess that you might find some local use of 'liner' as in 'someone on the flight line' or possibly a colloquialism for a 'line pilot', but I can't say I've ever actually heard anyone say that on any flight line I've ever hung about on.Al

Thanks Chock, it all makes sense now ;)

I only hope the Xmas video won't include Santa bringing toys using a Red Baron style biplane with Jingle Bells as sound track.........

I only hope the Xmas video won't include Santa bringing toys using a Red Baron style biplane with Jingle Bells as sound track.........

Pardon me for barging in and the long post, but I've been following AvSim for years as a lurker and just can't stand this anymore:Red Baron was a great game! But maybe it wasn't "simuation" enough for you because people didn't get shot down and killed while using it? :( Seriously, Emmeth, you and "Mr. Liner" seem very much like you just want to pound on Microsoft in general and not give Flight a chance at all based on a few videos obviously done by PR. Or maybe you're just sad about the state of simulations and taking it out on them?Like many people here, I've been buying and playing flying games/sims for nearly 30 years and I think we should remember the history lessons from the mid-to-late 1990's (maybe you're too young for that...? If so, then this old man says good for you!). There were a lot of "simulations" during that period and many companies making them. Microprose, Sierra/Dynamix, Looking Glass, Microsoft, Spectrum Holobyte, Electronic Arts, etc. It seemed like we got a new one every few months. Some were more entertainment (A-10 Tank Killer) and some were more "simulation" (Pro Pilot) and some were a mix (Chuck Yeager). Quite a variety!But then for a variety of reasons they started trying to be more and more realistic than each other. And they became more buggy, expensive, and took higher-end hardware to run. The epitome of this was the great potential/great disaster that was Falcon 4.0. More than 2 years late from their originally announced ship date because they started listening to the customer feedback on features that the "hard core" guys "demanded" (I know many guys that worked on that project--see below***). But I still remember buying it for $79 at Egghead the day it finally came out (adjust that for inflation in today's dollars...yikes!). It was a love/hate relationship from the start. But I also recognize it now as the zenith of the golden age of PC "simulation".Why? Because the economics of the business caught up with them all. It became more and more expensive to make more and more realistic simulations that would run on fewer and fewer machines as software prices were getting lower and lower. That just isn't a sustainable model for a large crowd of suppliers in ANY business.And how many of those companies are still making simulations now? I think the hard core simulation market pretty much killed itself. Or at least winnowed itself down to Microsoft and X-Plane, and the business model finally caught up with one of them (so long, Aces). It baffles me how some people rail against FSX because they expected Microsoft to sell them an FAA certified FFS Level A set up for $39 that would run on their 5 year old desktop. I can only conclude that they just like to complain about Microsoft or would prefer to use their PC to grouse on the forums than go on a virtual flight (of course if they have a 5 year old desktop FSX won't run very well on it anyway!). I understand the disappointment of seeing your hobby/passion disappear, but does it seem a bit like you're expressing your grief at the funeral pyre whilst busily pouring gasoline on it?Of course I'm not saying anyone should take any marketing or PR message with blind faith. They are paid for their puffery skills after all. But if you want the hobby to continue then offer up civil discourse and feedback and the developers might engage, I'm sure they're watching these boards (though probably too smart to get involved). And remember they are human also. Poor Phil Taylor tried his best and gave up after the abuse he took for things he couldn't control and decisions he didn't make. And I doubt that anyone in the Aces studio made the decision to close themselves down, put themselves out of jobs, and not be allowed to finish FS11. If some of them came back to do Flight (which their website FAQ seems to imply) then they're either very passionate about flight (just like we are) as well, or gluttons for punishment (or maybe both!).If the PR videos are even moderately close to the final product I'll buy the new game/sim and hope they get to keep going and improving it over time, just like Flight Simulator did for many years. I'll look at it as a starting point after Flight Simulator got wiped out in the Microsoft layoffs.And if Microsoft DOES try to make a product that pleases only the really hard core simmers then kiss it goodbye because the upper management that makes their bonuses off of sales figures (certainly not from stock options anymore) will take one look at the very small audience regardless of how happy they are with the product and then put the Flight team on Xbox and Kinect games (WSJ says 2.5 million Kinects sold in 25 days...what "real" simulation has ever come close to those numbers?).My intent wasn't to make personal attacks here (sorry if comes across that way) but to convey the realities of the software/games business and offer some hope and support for the future of a hobby I enjoy.Thanks for the soapbox, no doubt I have violated all sorts of grammar, forum etiquette rules, and personal sensibilities here. I'll go back into the shadows now.:( ***FWIW, like DMaher, I worked in the games business for awhile before getting a "real" job (games are fun to make but not a lot of money for the amount of work!). DMaher has a lot of great insights about how the sausage gets made.

I only hope the Xmas video won't include Santa bringing toys using a Red Baron style biplane with Jingle Bells as sound track.........

No I think it is more likely Steve Ballmer in the Stearman handing out Microsoft Live ID's and the soundtrack is Pink Floyd's Money.Regards, Mike Mann

Its human nature ...Some see the glass as half fullOthers, see the glass as half empty and full of poison... and, if I don't drink, this guy will shoot me in the back of the head. But he will probably miss, but if he misses, the ricochet will kill me.  I guess its Ok to drink, since the world is going to end in 2012 anyways.

Then again some don't even see the glass!!Regards, Mike Mann

Pardon me for barging in and the long post, but I've been following AvSim for years as a lurker and just can't stand this anymore:Red Baron was a great game! But maybe it wasn't "simuation" enough for you because people didn't get shot down and killed while using it? :(

First of all, thank you so very much for your well articulated and cogent commentary! What a relieving breath of fresh air!Now to the point above, I may be mistaken (as once I was many decades ago!), but I do believe that he was referring the the "Red Baron" as in "Snoopy versus the Red Baron..."

http://www.gifs.net/Animation11/Jobs_and_People/Pilots_and_Stuards/Red_baron.gif