And if Microsoft DOES try to make a product that pleases only the really hard core simmers then kiss it goodbye because the upper management that makes their bonuses off of sales figures (certainly not from stock options anymore) will take one look at the very small audience regardless of how happy they are with the product and then put the Flight team on Xbox and Kinect games (WSJ says 2.5 million Kinects sold in 25 days...what "real" simulation has ever come close to those numbers?).

An excellent post. I believe that one of the reasons (perhaps the key reason) for closing ACES was that management realised that ACES was adding more and more specialised features to FSNext that would appeal only to a smaller and smaller segment of the market and that the return didn't make it worthwhile.

Pardon me for barging in and the long post, but I've been following AvSim for years as a lurker and just can't stand this anymore:Red Baron was a great game! But maybe it wasn't "simuation" enough for you because people didn't get shot down and killed while using it? :( Seriously, Emmeth, you and "Mr. Liner" seem very much like you just want to pound on Microsoft in general and not give Flight a chance at all based on a few videos obviously done by PR. Or maybe you're just sad about the state of simulations and taking it out on them?Like many people here, I've been buying and playing flying games/sims for nearly 30 years and ......

I agree with you and n4gix! We need more people like you to say stuff like this. Things like this make me want to come back here. The pounding on Microsoft doesn't make me want to come back and I'm sure no one wants to read all the whining.

An excellent post. I believe that one of the reasons (perhaps the key reason) for closing ACES was that management realised that ACES was adding more and more specialised features to FSNext that would appeal only to a smaller and smaller segment of the market and that the return didn't make it worthwhile.

I don't believe that any of the ACES team were given cart blanche to add features as they saw fit.I would think that any new feature would have to be approved from above.Any other development approach than that would lead to an above budget and late release.Bryan.

I don't believe that any of the ACES team were given cart blanche to add features as they saw fit.I would think that any new feature would have to be approved from above.Any other development approach than that would lead to an above budget and late release.Bryan.

I doubt that senior management outside ACES would take too much interest in the fine detail once an overall programme and budget had been established. My believe is that mangament carried out a review of the project (as managements do) It seems likely to me that could raise awkward questions such as "why are you spending money implementing this feature which will only be of interest to dedicated enthusiasts - who will probably buy it anyway - but won't do anything to increrase sales to a wider market?"Consider, for example, SIDS and STARS which appear on many wish lists. How many non-enthusiasts would even know what they are - never mind find them a unique selling point. Those of us who visit these forums are not Microsoft's prime market, which has to be much wider to make a new simulator financially viable. My suspicion is that ACES lost sight of that. I seem to recall posts by others at the time of ACES closure stating that management wanted ACES to change direction and when it proved reluctant to do so closed it.

I doubt that senior management outside ACES would take too much interest in the fine detail once an overall programme and budget had been established. My believe is that mangament carried out a review of the project (as managements do)  It seems likely to me that could  raise awkward questions such as "why are you spending money implementing this feature which will only be of interest to dedicated enthusiasts - who will probably buy it anyway - but won't do anything to increrase sales to a wider market?"Consider,  for example, SIDS and STARS which appear on many wish lists.  How many non-enthusiasts would even know what they are - never mind find them a unique selling point.   Those of us who visit these forums are not Microsoft's prime market, which has to be much wider to make a new simulator financially viable. My suspicion is that ACES lost sight of that. I seem to recall posts by others at the time of ACES closure stating that management wanted ACES to change direction and when it proved reluctant to do so closed it.

" I seem to recall"  ..... sounds made up to prove your point  :(

" I seem to recall"  ..... sounds made up to prove your point  :(

No, as I was among those who posted precisely that information. :(

My suspicion is that ACES lost sight of that. I seem to recall posts by others at the time of ACES closure stating that management wanted ACES to change direction and when it proved reluctant to do so closed it.

So are you saying that ACES collectively and individually wanted to lose their jobs?If your employer wanted you to change your direction would you not comply?Does not seem very likely to me.Bryan.

So are you saying that ACES collectively and individually wanted to lose their jobs?If your employer wanted you to change your direction would you not comply?Does not seem very likely to me.Bryan.

Funny you should say that. I lost a job many years ago with a scenario very much as you described.Sometimes standing by your principles has its downsides. That being said, I have never regretted my stand.Regards, Mike Mann

Funny you should say that. I lost a job many years ago with a scenario very much as you described.Sometimes standing by your principles has its downsides. That being said, I have never regretted my stand.Regards, Mike Mann

Yeah, it's good when someone stands for what they believe in, but you were just one individual whereas ACES were a whole group of people who apperently lost their jobs because they refused to compromise.Bryan.

Although it's a tough decision, I don't think you'll find it too rare that people will on occasion leave their jobs because they don't like the way things are going if they feel strongly about stuff.I've done exactly that myself once when leaving a job (writing for newspaper) because I didn't like the lazy editorial stance the paper was turning to, which I thought would lower circulation and damage the paper's credibility, and I'd worked at that place for over ten years when I walked out. Turned out I was right too as it happened (engage 'smug' mode LOL).Al

Yeah, it's good when someone stands for what they believe in, but you were just one individual whereas ACES were a whole group of people who apperently lost their jobs because they refused to compromise.Bryan.

Considering the number of people posting objections to the Microsoft business model here at AVSIM is it so big a stretch to imagine a group of Microsoft employees taking a similar position?Regards, Mike Mann

Looks like MS really has rewritten the game engine from scratch! Looks like they are also including virtual cabins as well as talking virtual flight attendants! They won't swoon me over with their fancy graphics. I am sticking with FSX!

Considering the number of people posting objections to the Microsoft business model here at AVSIM is it so big a stretch to imagine a group of Microsoft employees taking a similar position?Regards, Mike Mann

Depends how big a number ACES were I suppose. Besides it's easy to object to a company's business model when the person doing the objecting does not work for that company.Besides by all accounts MS is now re-hiring a number of the former ACES members...is that just the ones that towed the MS line the first time?No, I think Microsoft misread the market at a time when they were looking to cut back, and lets face it the first thing any company looks at when taking stock is the wage bill.Thats the long and short of it really.Bryan.

Look folks at the end of the day Aces was in the wrong division. I mean lets not forget the 5 Billions dollars in debt the Entertainment Division found it self under circa 2004. At the end of the day I don't believe for a second it was Microsoft's or Aces choice, they all answer to Wall Street... And what we got was an SEC filing saying Aces amoung 5000 other people had been let go, but flight simulator would live on. The ones that got to keep their jobs were the elite of the elite at Aces.. ie the engine/graphics guys. I think everyone forgets most Aces employees are/were artist. And we really don't need them anymore, we got OrbX that does a much better job with "default" scenery. And any aircraft we need , we look towards PMDG for setting the standards. The only reason MS is still in this equation is that they're the only ones able to do large deals with content providors like Jeppesen, DigiGlobe or anyone of the other corporate suppliers.

I don't think the OP meant any harm by his post. It appears to just be a light hearted attempt at humor and not a MS bashing post. No one except for the designers at MS Game Studios will know what the end product will be or will look like so commenting on Flight being good or bad is a little premature. So as Sgt. Hulka said, "Lighten up, Francis."