As a significant number of accidents are caused by pilot error, so stressing pilots and paying them peanuts it's a very good way to prevent accidents.

Pilot error is solved by training and technology (i.e. stick shakers) not salary and benefits. As Notorious B.I.G. said once: "Mo money, mo problems", so raising wages would likely increase stress, thus accidents...In all seriousness though... Statistically, flying has never been safer. Unfortunately, accidents and bad things do happen. Such is life.Cheers!

...Unfortunately, accidents and bad things do happen. Such is life.

Yes, but life is also such that you can find out what the causes are and try to address them so accidents don't happen.When I was your age, a lot of airplanes were broken and a lot of people died because it was customary to take off and land through severe thunderstorms. No one had yet done any research into the effect of microbursts. Such was life. Shame about the accidents but air travel is inherently dangerous, gotta keep the schedules if you want to make money, right? Well, after a few too many of those crashes, research got done, good science got a hearing, protocols were changed and today, you no longer hear about major airliners coming down in thunderstorms on takeoff or landing. So such is no longer life.Today the issues have more to do with human factors, like fatigue. Interestingly, Jay Hopkins, who does the Training column in Flying magazine, just finished a multipart series about fatigue and the safety risks it creates. An especially pertinent discussion given the recent rash of sleeping controller incidents - which, of course, the mainstream media has yet to connect to the fatigue problem.Bottom line - safety and machismo don't go together well. And a cavalier attitude to safety doesn't make for long-lived pilots.Back to the original topic - for those interested in Sully, this book is very much worth reading. It was a bit controversial when it came out, since it makes the case for the Airbus and fly-by-wire as essential support for what Sully was able to do. The book itself is much more nuanced than the reviews led me to expect. It's very respectful of Sully, and seeks mainly to broaden the conversation by introducing the idea of technology as a means of addressing pilot limitations in general. The author is the son of Wolfgang Langewiesche, who wrote Stick and Rudder. He's a pilot himself. You may not agree with all of it but it's very well done.- Alan Ampolsk

Pilot error is solved by training and technology (i.e. stick shakers) ...

The pilots involved in the Colgan accident had both, so your argument doesn't hold water I'm afraid.

Bottom line - safety and machismo don't go together well. And a cavalier attitude to safety doesn't make for long-lived pilots.

Agreed. There is no amount of pay/training/attitude/technology/etc. that will completely eliminate the human factor. The only way to have 100% success rate with pilot error is to remove the pilot.... But for arguments sake... Let's assume that you are correct and that we must do EVERYTHING to eliminate the human factor. At what point do we stop? For instance, would pilots be allowed to fly while going through a divorce? Should they fly if they stubbed their toe? Should they fly if they were they got in a "forum fight"? At what salary does stress level go down?And what about fatigue? Doesn't the FAA already have requirements in place to combat said fatigue? Should those be changed as well? What is deemed "better"?

The pilots involved in the Colgan accident had both, so your argument doesn't hold water I'm afraid.

You may want to look at the Captains history of failed checkrides. Read the NTSB report and you'll notice that the Captain hauled back on the stick while the stick shaker was engaged.... So the poorly trained/prepared pilot was the overide of the technology. And you shouldn't be afraid... My name is in fact "Buddy"!I find it absolutely fascinating that when an accident happens in this day and age, bright and well informed people view these anomalies as systematic failures. After all, if you look at the HISTORY of aviation accidents... we currently live in the safest flying environment in the history of the world... Now certainly strides will continue to be made in regards of safety. However, everything in life carries risk and that risk will NEVER be totally eliminated.Cheers!

For the amount of money it costs to get yourself trained and actually hired by an airline I don't think pilots are paid enough. I work the ramp and make more than all of our second officers, and still I'm just getting by after rent, car payment, bills, gas, kid, food etc. theres not much extra after that. When I worked for an FBO one of the airlines in our hangar had a couple rampies, they were being paid $13 per hour, one of the girls after about 2 years on the ramp got put in the right seat of a king air and was making less per year then she was at $13 per hour. Most of them had second jobs because they couldn't make ends meet. Talk about fatigued pilots, not the girl Im talking about but the Chief Pilot and an up and coming Captain on his checkride forgot to lower the gear on landing with 7 passengers onboard, luckly nobody was hurt seriously as the belly pod full of rig gear too the brunt of the impact. They destroyed the engines too when the belly pod hit and they realized that the gear was up they went full power to try and go around but weren't able to as they came to a stop pretty fast, Ive never seen props bent like that before. We ran over to the aircraft after it came to a stop about 150 feet from us to make sure everyone was ok and sure enough the gear lever was in the up position. I don't know how you "forget" to put the gear down, especially on a checkride but fatigue was a major factor as they found out later on that the FO doing his checkride to become Captain worked the night before and only slept for an hour or so in his car before the flight. How the "Chief Pilot" for the company forgot the gear is beond me, isn't that what all the checklists are for?? As for the Colgan Crash, Im not a "real pilot" by any means but even I know that in a stall you definatly don't pull up. But they say that driving while very tired/fatigued is just as bad as driving drunk so Im sure that played a major role in the mistakes that were made. It is unfortunate thats for sure.The airlines know that there are people that desperatly want to fly for a living so they will pay next to nothing as there is always someone else that will take your place if you don't like the pay. I would love to be a pilot but unfortunatly I don't live at home with my parents and can't afford such a major pay cut, sure I would be flying but the tradeoff is just too much. I wish I would have started fresh out of high school 10 years ago when I could have afforded to make next to nothing as I didn't have all the expenses I do now. As far as I know once your established as a Captain and have thousands of hours under your belt the pay isn't too bad at all, just getting there is the trick.Corey Prefontaine CYEG

For the amount of money it costs to get yourself trained and actually hired by an airline I don't think pilots are paid enough. I work the ramp and make more than all of our second officers, and still I'm just getting by after rent, car payment, bills, gas, kid, food etc. theres not much extra after that. When I worked for an FBO one of the airlines in our hangar had a couple rampies, they were being paid $13 per hour, one of the girls after about 2 years on the ramp got put in the right seat of a king air and was making less per year then she was at $13 per hour. Most of them had second jobs because they couldn't make ends meet. Talk about fatigued pilots, not the girl Im talking about but the Chief Pilot and an up and coming Captain on his checkride forgot to lower the gear on landing with 7 passengers onboard, luckly nobody was hurt seriously as the belly pod full of rig gear too the brunt of the impact. They destroyed the engines too when the belly pod hit and they realized that the gear was up they went full power to try and go around but weren't able to as they came to a stop pretty fast, Ive never seen props bent like that before. We ran over to the aircraft after it came to a stop about 150 feet from us to make sure everyone was ok and sure enough the gear lever was in the up position. I don't know how you "forget" to put the gear down, especially on a checkride but fatigue was a major factor as they found out later on that the FO doing his checkride to become Captain worked the night before and only slept for an hour or so in his car before the flight. How the "Chief Pilot" for the company forgot the gear is beond me, isn't that what all the checklists are for?? As for the Colgan Crash, Im not a "real pilot" by any means but even I know that in a stall you definatly don't pull up. But they say that driving while very tired/fatigued is just as bad as driving drunk so Im sure that played a major role in the mistakes that were made. It is unfortunate thats for sure.The airlines know that there are people that desperatly want to fly for a living so they will pay next to nothing as there is always someone else that will take your place if you don't like the pay. I would love to be a pilot but unfortunatly I don't live at home with my parents and can't afford such a major pay cut, sure I would be flying but the tradeoff is just too much. I wish I would have started fresh out of high school 10 years ago when I could have afforded to make next to nothing as I didn't have all the expenses I do now. As far as I know once your established as a Captain and have thousands of hours under your belt the pay isn't too bad at all, just getting there is the trick.Corey Prefontaine CYEG

Good point about the fatigue from working second jobs. A lot of the low wage anti labor crowd does not get that those of us without trust funds or a rich family have to get by on what we earn so sometimes that means two or more jobs. I rather not get only a flight in the AM after the pilots just worked a overnight to try and keep a roof over their head.

its our own fault we are the ones who will fly for penuts because they know we want to fly planes because we love it. And we would do it for free if we didn't need money to pay bills and keep our wifes happy

Sigh it's sad when people take up for our corporate overlords.

Ok guys... You all are right. Let's make every pilot with 500 hrs have a minimum of 100k per year. They can retire with full salary at 45. Then all the ramp guys get at least 60+ benefits. What do you suppose would happen to ticket prices. How many people do you think would buy those tickets relative to today?I bet a lot of you all think that doctors make TOO MUCH right? After all healthcare is too expensive... but hey, in a litigious society, they must run every test in the book in the name of "safety" despite what experience or their gut or their training tells them...In other news, just saw part one of Atlas Shrugged. Mediocre movie (relative to the book), but how appropriate given the current climate.Cheers!

Im just saying a pilot which has about $80,000 in schooling minimum shouldn't make less than someone like me on the ramp with really no schooling, nor should they have to work another job just so they can eat. That becomes a safety issue and me as a passenger would like to know that the person in control of the aircraft I am on is well rested and fully alert. I don't agree with low hour pilots making 100k a year but enough to live is reasonable in my opinion.I do have my drafting ticket but I can't jumpseat in a 727 working in an office so, plus I just like being around the aircraft everyday.Corey Prefontaine CYEG Edit: I wish I made 60k a year as a rampie... lol.. not even close, and healthcare is free up here.

Im just saying a pilot which has about $80,000 in schooling minimum shouldn't make less than someone like me on the ramp with really no schooling, nor should they have to work another job just so they can eat. That becomes a safety issue and me as a passenger would like to know that the person in control of the aircraft I am on is well rested and fully alert. I don't agree with low hour pilots making 100k a year but enough to live is reasonable in my opinion.I do have my drafting ticket but I can't jumpseat in a 727 working in an office so, plus I just like being around the aircraft everyday.Corey Prefontaine CYEG Edit: I wish I made 60k a year as a rampie... lol.. not even close, and healthcare is free up here.

I know exactly what your saying and know where you are coming from. Someone has to mind the ramp though right? Let's say you had a choice between BE350 captain and rampie... Same pay, same benefits, same hours, etc.... There wouldn't be an rampie's left. It's simple supply and demand.Also, healthcare isn't "free" anywhere... YOU just don't have to come out of pocket for it.... yet...:biggrin:Cheers!

Agreed. There is no amount of pay/training/attitude/technology/etc. that will completely eliminate the human factor. The only way to have 100% success rate with pilot error is to remove the pilot.... But for arguments sake... Let's assume that you are correct and that we must do EVERYTHING to eliminate the human factor. At what point do we stop? For instance, would pilots be allowed to fly while going through a divorce? Should they fly if they stubbed their toe? Should they fly if they were they got in a "forum fight"? At what salary does stress level go down?And what about fatigue? Doesn't the FAA already have requirements in place to combat said fatigue? Should those be changed as well? What is deemed "better"?

I never said we should do EVERYTHING to eliminate the human factor. I said we should work continually to identify safety risks and eliminate them if at all possible. Several times in this thread you've said that we're currently in the safest aviation environment in history. Yes, but that could have been said of every previous point in aviation history. Aviation in 1975 was vastly safer than it had been in 1956 or 1960. Airliners weren't regularly colliding with each other. But it was still customary to land with massive thunderstorms over the airport. Therefore Eastern 66. New information caused practices to change. Now an accident like Eastern 66 would be unthinkable. Why can't fatigue be approached in the same way? You're simply drawing an arbitrary line and saying, "Starting here, this is too trivial to address." Requirments already in place? Not necessarily. Standards are different at regionals than they are at the majors. And at the time of Colgan Air, the "hold harmless" clause protected the majors from litigation resulting from accidents at the regionals carrying their names, creating an effective two-tier system and removing incentives for the majors to intervene to improve safety at the regionals. Financial considerations were allowed to win out over safety. People died - needlessly, I should add, because this accident wasn't inevitable, it was the product of a flawed system. As to the training history of the Colgan Air pilot, that's one factor, but good accident investigation involves weighing multiple factors, not just finding someone to blame so you can absolve your beloved unrestrained capitalism. As far as FAA regulations are concerned, there was some interesting commentary in Flying by Peter Garrison and Les Abend among others about the difference between passing qualification requirments and having actual experience. In the past, in a different (regulated) economic system, the Colgan Air pilot would have logged many more hours under supervision before becoming pilot in command of a commercial aircraft. His main recommendation was that he worked cheap.What is deemed "better" is anything that improves safety. If the regulations aren't adedquate then yes, they should be changed.But given that you're very young, very sure of yourself and an Ayn Rand admirer, I doubt you'll be swayed by any of this. Just remind me never to fly with you - I try to avoid pilots who are impervious to argument and immune to doubt.Good luck!Best,Alan Ampolsk

Also, healthcare isn't "free" anywhere... YOU just don't have to come out of pocket for it.... yet...:(

Healthcare costs are lower to each individual when every individual in society contributes to the financing pool. But hey, that's just my Masters in Healthcare Finance talking... can't hardly compete with The Fountainhead...Alan Ampolsk

Ok guys... You all are right. Let's make every pilot with 500 hrs have a minimum of 100k per year. They can retire with full salary at 45. Then all the ramp guys get at least 60+ benefits. What do you suppose would happen to ticket prices. How many people do you think would buy those tickets relative to today?I bet a lot of you all think that doctors make TOO MUCH right? After all healthcare is too expensive... but hey, in a litigious society, they must run every test in the book in the name of "safety" despite what experience or their gut or their training tells them...In other news, just saw part one of Atlas Shrugged. Mediocre movie (relative to the book), but how appropriate given the current climate.Cheers!

Buddy2, you said on the first page of this thread you were going to stop because you could see this turning into a political/ideological debate. Well I only see one person yelling "fire" in this theater and it's you. Either take your own advice and stop posting or leave out the nonsense like your complete non sequitur to Atlas Shrugged of all things. There are plenty of other places to discuss those things. Further, turning simple, friendly debates on how to better aviation into a soap box for you to snidely throw in your political agenda is precisely why no common sense solutions can be achieved these days.

Buddy2, you said on the first page of this thread you were going to stop because you could see this turning into a political/ideological debate. Well I only see one person yelling "fire" in this theater and it's you. Either take your own advice and stop posting or leave out the nonsense like your complete non sequitur to Atlas Shrugged of all things. There are plenty of other places to discuss those things. Further, turning simple, friendly debates on how to better aviation into a soap box for you to snidely throw in your political agenda is precisely why no common sense solutions can be achieved these days.

I'M NOT YELLING FIRE!I simply have a different opinion than the masses here and really just want to "hear" the common sense solutions that you or anyone else can propose... Maybe even challenge those "common sense solutions". Raising wages? OK, that's why I threw out my ridiculous hypo... Of course nobody knows by "how much" salaries "should" be raised... And nobody "knows" how this could adversely affect the aviation industry... and of course nobody "knows" anything other than something should be done! Also, I've maintained an incredible level of civility throughout the duration despite receiving ad hominem attacks from more than one. That's fine, I can take my licks. Cheers!

I never said we should do EVERYTHING to eliminate the human factor. I said we should work continually to identify safety risks and eliminate them if at all possible. Several times in this thread you've said that we're currently in the safest aviation environment in history. Yes, but that could have been said of every previous point in aviation history.

I also added that there would continue to be strides made. Lest we forget.

What is deemed "better" is anything that improves safety. If the regulations aren't adedquate then yes, they should be changed.

Agreed.

But given that you're very young, very sure of yourself and an Ayn Rand admirer, I doubt you'll be swayed by any of this. Just remind me never to fly with you - I try to avoid pilots who are impervious to argument and immune to doubt.

Ad hominem attacks do nothing but discredit your position.

Healthcare costs are lower to each individual when every individual in society contributes to the financing pool. But hey, that's just my Masters in Healthcare Finance talking... can't hardly compete with The Fountainhead...

In an ideal world this is accurate. Unfortunately, Americans don't live in Utopia. EVERY individual does not contribute. In fact, 1 in 2 pay federal income tax... and the trend isn't going in your theory's favor. BTW I thought you were a communications guy? I'd really like to read your "###### Movement as a secular religion" thesis (seriously)... I bet it's fascinating :smile:Cheers!