No, I won't change threads because you say so.No, I won't stay honest because you tell me to. I'm already honest and with a honest smile, I can report about some very nice views on your very attitude and approach towards things.As said, that 'it was all a joke!' thing from Mr. Ron Hamilton from Eaglesoft will be one of my favourite and best proves for .. leaving that up to you. I call it a masterpiece and he may call it that way too. So, I guess, if not yet another joking thing comes up, I'm looking at some finished 10 pages of thread with a clear tenor.If only three guys are in doubt there, that's ok.

Pretense does not a solution make. Brighter minds and hearts than yours have addressed, nay "cussed and discussed" the vagaries that you espouse in these threads.Need proof? Then I suggest you have a careful, thoughtful, read of both links which are provided.A thoughtful reader will readily see that your arguments pale in comparison to both the knowledge and wisdom contained in those threads.Thankfully, the sim community is and has been exposed to thought other than that which you've contributed.:(

Thanks to Avsim for offering this unprotected space for both sides, far away from company forums and rules which don't allow open statements, facts and questions.Setting up a donation now, no kidding. This open space really proved it's existence and the need for it.Edited: donated.

Hmm, it would appear that true motivations have come to light with this poster??:(

On an odd aside: Your complaint about having to request, via email, a reactivation of your FS addon has taken far more of your time than the actual time to write said email would have taken. I find it odd that you feel it acceptable to waste so much of your time complaining about something that takes a smidgen of time.

Are you wasting your time?

RULE #1: The customer is always right.RULE #2: If you think the customer is wrong, look at rule #1 again.

If you really believe that then I doubt you've had any real experience with customers.

I think you are incapable of admiting that anyone having a viewpoint that is contrary to your black/white (good devs/evil devs) view on the world has a valid argument in any way. I think you use 100 words to make rambling statements most of which make little sense to make a point that could easily be made clearly and concisely with 10. I think your attitude towards copy protection and piracy is about 10 years out of date, and is naive in the extreme. I think you have probably convinced no-one of your cause, although I am sure that there are more people that share your views than have posted here - most of them probably hang out at torrent sites.Well you did ask !!G

And well answered Gaz..:(

I think you are incapable of admiting that anyone having a viewpoint that is contrary to your black/white (good devs/evil devs) view on the world has a valid argument in any way. I think you use 100 words to make rambling statements most of which make little sense to make a point that could easily be made clearly and concisely with 10. I think your attitude towards copy protection and piracy is about 10 years out of date, and is naive in the extreme. I think you have probably convinced no-one of your cause, although I am sure that there are more people that share your views than have posted here - most of them probably hang out at torrent sites.Well you did ask !!G

Gazz, you are a wise man as were some others, such as the OP for bringing this to light in an intelligent manner, and quadraspleen for sharing from another industry.

Thanks for the kind words, Jim. This really gets rid of some negative tone spin in this thread and I therefore appreciate their existence. :smile:Now, I'm still wondering why other really successful companies on the market still tend to use basic and customer friendly ways of protecting their stuff while the old school people are so confident about their fancy stuff, with the other policy. That's an undoubted discrepancy and which one of both sides proves to has the better concept now?I lately read about the Orbx policy on this and it included everything but no increased protection measures, not in a single line. Have to admit, I was happy about this modern view since it avoids the sad victims shown and named in this thread, valid payers without a running product.In fact, their latest sale was proclaimed as a clear anti-piracy thing. Impressive, surprising and, yeah, modern viewpoint. No doubts, their way of business already was and will be successful.

Perhaps your 15 minutes are wearing down...Good day then...:(

Ron, I have to say this because this thread believe it or not, has been very enlightening and I would hate to see it spoilt by anybody opening their mouth before the brain engages. If you have nothing useful to contribute, please stop with the sarcastic comments. In MY mind, it does your company image more harm than good. I have seen you jump into this thread "boots an' all" and question whether you have read all the comments. Most people understand your predicament and although some will not give a rats arse, the majority are I believe compassionate with regards to the problems your tiny industry faces in what is, a large potential global (and cultural) market.So, going back on topic Jim raised an interesting comment regarding pricing models and I would like to comment with some facts.Many years ago, Microsoft was (and still is) concerned about software pirating in Asia. Rather than try and tackle the problem head on with preconcieved ideas, they got smart and tried to find out WHY people copy software. Some of the obvious answers (or at least obvious to those in Asia) were not so obvious to those highly paid execs running the company in the US. They had inherited a black and white attitude to "pirates". Some of the answers might surprise you:-1. Barriers to purchase - Although one barrier has been mentioned (in fact started this discussion) there are more such as access (or lack thereof) to payment facilities and options. 2. Perceived Value - This ia an interesting one because I often see narrow minded comments such as "it's only the cost of a night out". In many contries the asking price for legitimate software is outside of the average persons reach. This one in particular is bound to create a black market. Perceived value also included (and very strongly I might add) lack of native (language) support.3. Perception of capitalism. This is a global problem for all western companies and is not really something a small developer can control or influence. An american companies software is more likely to be cracked and distributed than a local software distributor - FACT. Western countries are seen as wealthy nations where the majority of people are driven by greed and live a great life.4. Lack of government support to minimise piracy. This actually is a beaut and whilst not neccessarily applying to Microsoft does apply to many smaller developers. It is the issue of lost tax revenue (sales / import taxes). Tax is not voluntarily paid back to the country in which those earnings were made. Why? Because it is - at the moment too hard to implement. The current system is, in most countries reliant upon voluntary disclosure. But nevertheless, it is tax avoidance, which in turn is viewed as theft. I wonder how many small internet based distributors are honest enough to voluntarily disclose country related earnings and therefore tax obligations to those countries which they will happily take money from? As I said the system is too difficult at present and I have no doubt that in time we will work our way to a more honest and global solution. I also have no doubt that there will be more (local) support to stamp out piracy once the complex taxation and revenue issues are worked out. Anyhow, I could keep going but these four are the main ones. Back to Microsoft.Microsoft were selling their legal software at the "global" (read the price we sell in the US) rate of $500. Literaly next door you could purchase same pirated software for $50. So they reduced their price, not to $50 but to $200, added more percieved value by way of better native language support and worked very hard to show that Asia was viewed as a business partner rather than an offshore capitalist empire.The end result Jim was YES, they reduced piracy and increased their own earnings by a very substantial amount. They also demonstrated that perceived consumer value was more important than the "competitive" price i.e the pirated option. Can you stamp out piracy? No, but you can work closer with your potential customers (many of whom you immediately class as pirates) rather than against them. They can be your greatest friends, supporters and source of income. Figure out what the other issues are - how can I make it easier for potential customers to part with their hard earned cash (relative to earnings etc), what do we have to do to let them try and embrace the software. What do we have to do to encourage them to take the perceive better value than the pirated route?The answers are always in those "grey" areas. But that takes guts to gamble and a real desire to change.Cheers DB

Ron, I have to say this because this thread believe it or not, has been very enlightening and I would hate to see it spoilt by anybody opening their mouth before the brain engages. If you have nothing useful to contribute, please stop with the sarcastic comments. In MY mind, it does your company image more harm than good. I have seen you jump into this thread "boots an' all" and question whether you have read all the comments. Most people understand your predicament and although some will not give a rats arse, the majority are I believe compassionate with regards to the problems your tiny industry faces in what is, a large potential global (and cultural) market.Cheers DB

Ok, I'll play...First, I'm not the least interested in company image concerns at the expense of true understanding of the issues of theft as presented by those without a "dog in the fight" as it were.I'm willing to to wager that neither you nor CoolIP have a clue as to the challenges presented to FS Developers these days and furthermore neither you nor he could give a rats posterior given that you have no "skin in the game".Having witnessed these same tired discussions for over a decade it's a bit amusing and frustrating to see 10-12-15 pages of those who actually think that if they can browbeat developers into taking the blame for theft then all will be right with the world.Here's a constructive bit. Realize that the FS Addon business is a retail model and as such is subject to all the pitfalls and rewards that brick and mortor retail businesses face.The same is true of customer relations. I know brick and mortor retail owners who absolutely refuse to service or support certain clientel based on the clients behaviour and attitudes toward the business and its owners.I could spend alot of time telling business "war stories" but I think you get my drift. After better than a decade of posts like this I've heard no viable solutions to theft from this community other than the following.... "If developers were nicer, less concerned with profit, more concerned with the customer, give away freebies, reduce prices, more supportive of customers wishes, and on and on..."Please have an actual read of the links provided earlier and you'll likely save a lot of time over rehashing the same non solutions to the issue of theft and or the myth that the "customer is always right":(

Ron, I have to say this because this thread believe it or not, has been very enlightening and I would hate to see it spoilt by anybody opening their mouth before the brain engages. If you have nothing useful to contribute, please stop with the sarcastic comments. In MY mind, it does your company image more harm than good. I have seen you jump into this thread "boots an' all" and question whether you have read all the comments. Most people understand your predicament and although some will not give a rats arse, the majority are I believe compassionate with regards to the problems your tiny industry faces in what is, a large potential global (and cultural) market.

DB with all respect :( much of this thread has been over the top.Your comment applies to many here...on both sides of the debate.Lol - I know I was turned off by a few :( That's the way it goes sometime, but we're all friends here.BTW, Ron does use Flight1 - which got mentioned favorably several times.

DB with all respect :( much of this thread has been over the top.So your comment applies to many here...on both sides of the debate.Lol - I know I was offended :( That's the way it goes sometime, but we're all friends here.BTW, Ron does use Flight1 - which got mentioned favorably several times.

For the record...Eaglesoft Development Group chose the F1 Ecommerce System at our inception.Customer friendly 24/7 access by the customer for recovery and reset held the most appeal.The 30 Day Refund offer was secondary but has proven invaluable as well.The criteria used for that selection was then and is now the basis for our business practice.These policies have allowed us to sleep very well, content in the knowledge that we've defrauded no one.:(

Since nobody ever questioned the nice handling of the F1 system, I'm wondering why this no-question-status now gets mentioned as a big Pro?In the way of Eaglesoft, the F1 system therefore may be a general Con, a well handling Pro and together with the attitudes shown in this thread a .. whatever.So the trouble with Eaglesoft may not necessarily by one related to the protection system being in use as this thread shows.If you discuss things with a guy who's seen it all, had it all, knows it all but doesn't read/understand it all, the critics towards the sarcasm shouldn't come up too surprisingly.The same guy who now is so proud of himself (at least, from the outside view) and crossed the line for numerous times is the same guy complaining about others calling him a liar while later trying the 'it's all a joke attempt'. A surely remarkable character variety when talking about just one guy. If there had been some useful answers in between, this résumé may have looked different.But, you may have guessed it, this thing isn't the topic and it never was.The combinational varieties to run a business are huge and while some old school guys rely on their huge knowledge and the 'I've seen it all' status, the other ones offer the variety which maybe drives some customers to try and support their stuff in another, more convincing way. Preferences are a personal thing and, as the examples from e. g. ANZ121 or Quadraspleen show, some big names in the software business are not dependent on the old school knowledge or maybe just started to think about their approach towards the known to be unknown mass of bloody pirates. A logical step when fighting old school for decades, without success.There still isn't a single valid protection method out to have proven any influence on pirate numbers since you still can't measure them. You can count sales and then assume that 'no sales equals high piracy'. That method (hard to call it that way) is as simple as it is wrong. The sales are influenced by price, image, quality .. just to name a few, and piracy. Various factors.If it was that easy as you proclaim, why are other (already mentioned) companies like Orbx showing such a far better and far more customer friendly way of actually fighting some of the pirates? Still an open question and I really don't expect my fellow 'friends' (citing dmaher) to be able to answer it now, after 10 pages of asking.N400QW, you've won. :( Now, please, answer us some questions (which were repeated and are still open).For example, if Microsoft, Sony and other companies aren't able to give numbers on piracy which withstand the view of a judge longer than a minute, why is Eaglesoft able to speak about 'hard-coded' ones then?Or, if you are speaking about solid protection measures, why is the average user able to find free offers at Google after some minutes of looking, sometimes seconds, even of the fancy stuff you guys are not tired of calling "safe"?And why do you guys proclaim an EULA to be law while it is everything but this? This was pointed out at least twice and you've just ignored it while not getting tired of posting your 'I know it all' mentality and sarcasm.So, yes, try at least to add something to the discussion, you seem to be old enough to know how this is done.I'm sure you have something to tell except for sarcasm and if you don't like me then at least try to speak to the other guys around or stay out of the game. Your commercial status adds quite some potential here, but if it is just used to rule others with the simple and vague statements seen on those 10 pages, it can't be mentioned as a Pro.Competence isn't gained by doing the very same thing over and over, it is gained by additional knowledge. This thread offers some new stuff for you.Does anybody doubt that posting "against" our commercial members or even pro the touchy piracy topic is a thing of quite some size for some interested readers around?You've seen how the old school people reacted at just some attempts of support for a new and fresh thinking on their side.'There he is, the pirate! Stop him!' therefore already lies on their tongues, just in case somebody enters. Stereotype thinking always was a safe factor for narrowed viewpoints to stay that way, intentionally in some cases.I also doubt that pro-new thinking commercial members will step in here, running heads with the big and mighty guys in the thread just for the sake of telling them that the other posters here may be right in their modern viewpoints. Praises to the brave posters which already did participate, by not stating another narrow-view thing of the old days.Takes quite some guts, the thing which seems to be lacking on the other side.

Guys, I've just realized that I've made a terrible mistake. Maybe we all did.I've approached the whole thing from the wrong side, the "black" one, by looking for the things which are going wrong only while leaving out all the stuff which already is right and even gets better. Maybe I was influenced by the "blackness" and the bad, bad and mistrusting world and mood of others, but the main mistake of my behavior still is based at my side.Since the thread started, we were talking about bad examples, errors, misconceptions, lies, not honest people, spoiled customers, bad service, loss of sales .. in whole, about bad experiences. This evolved to a later sarcasm and also overall bad thread mood. Both sides are unhappy and both sides are believing to be in this state for good reasons. There are tons of such threads around and I'm not up to add another one.Now it's time to start the other way around by naming, really naming, some good or superb examples of good service, good and easy protection, maybe good sales and so on. Therefore looking at the sunny side of the service and policy world, giving examples which really happened and show how good some things already work and pay off for both sides, customer and company.Start to learn not by mistakes but by good (positive) examples.DJ Jose, you have some of your GOLD Stars in your signature and since this is your thread, you may want to tell a short story about this or that dev which really proved to be honest with you and about you. Which did support you and helped as you had some trouble with the product or a thing in the surrounding of it. Maybe one dev which really raised the bar and will therefore be supported by you wholeheartedly.There surely is a short story which can enlighten us and shows what you are expecting from a dev and, maybe, also what you are about to give him back then. This GOLD status is there for a reason, right?I would have such stories too, but since this is your thread, you may want to start and therefore stop this bad mood thing going on since around 10 pages, reaching it's zenith .. now!So forget about my previous statement and start getting happy, positively impressed and surprised and also constructive since we will give some examples of good support and good policies. Don't worry, nobody will harm you if a copy protection or one of the companies like Eaglesoft or HiFi are named since all of them have the right to surprise the readers and give a positive example.I hope this is ok with you and I hope everybody around accepts my apologies for going down in the mood-term from page to page. :( Hoping for some stories now, from all readers, even the commercial ones, which are customers too at this or that dev. So lets get rid of the bad mood then! It only drives people nuts and isn't fun to read.

The only story I will tell you is that I've removed the VRS F/A 18 from my signature. My 15 minutes of fame are up.Thanks to each one of you for your contribution to this thread.

The only story I will tell you is that I've removed the VRS F/A 18 from my signature. My 15 minutes of fame are up.Thanks to each one of you for your contribution to this thread.

Glad to see that you've reached closure of some sort despite your unpleasant experience DJ.:(