You're not getting my MONEY! Buyer Beware!

[Chock 17,769]

Personally, I think the fact that a lot of pirates apparently can't resist putting trojans and what not in torrented versions of stuff, or sending people to somewhat dubious sites, is probably doing the developers more of a favour than any activation limits ever will.I wouldn't touch all that torrent stuff with a bargepole anyway since I prefer to support developers financially, which is why I'll buy stuff from almost any developer, but if I wasn't of that ilk, I think I'd still stay away from all that torrent crap for the aforementioned reason alone.Funnily enough (although not funny at the time) I got a virus off a USB drive I take my training demo files around on after plugging it into a computer at some company I was training at in Yorkshire a few weeks back, and it took me bloody ages to get rid of that thing off my computer with AVG, so I'm sure as hell not going to actually go looking for that kind of stuff in some dodgy knock of toy aeroplane LOL, and I'd really recommend everyone else does the same if they want to see developers stay in business and keep their bios chip from exploding.Al

[CFIJose 5,485]

Since this thread has turned into an "effects of piracy" thread, I will expatiate why I feel so strongly about piracy - because it also affects my line of work. There was a time when purchasing a music library (records or cds) was a huge expense for anyone wanting a career as a Mobile DJ. Now any idiot with a laptop can accumulate a decent library of music thanks to P2P and the internet. This means that my extravagant and very expensive collection of music cds and vinyl can be easily put on a hard drive for free.That's sad. We are living in sad times when people resort to unethical practices that ultimately put people out of business. Maybe the artists who earn millions don't care about free downloads, but people like me who rely on recorded music (and a great voice) to entertain, see it with a different set of eyes.That's why I STRONGLY oppose any kind of illegal downloads or piracy.

[n4gix 4,947]

The first 5 torrent links for Active Sky SP2 are either dead links or "open your wallet".One torrent does get you a download and "patch" but when you install AS and "patch" it, it doesn't run.The next gets the same package and with that I stopped trying. The security of my computer is worth more than trying to prove anything to anyone.

That's precisely what I've found as well. I have a "junk computer" that is isolated from the rest of my network that I use specifically during such adventures...Since it has only WinXP and IE8 installed, and is isolated from my network, I don't much care about whether it gets "infected..."...since I can wipe and restore the entire C drive from my NATS mirror in less than a half-hour.As a matter of fact, I do a wipe/restore after any research trips just to be on the safe side.

[CoolP 283]

Jim, only my respect for other people (in this case, your business) and the one for the rules of Avsim hold me back from showing you some Google results (no, there's no link). These show some very confident users besides some having trouble applying a patch but none of them having to pay a thing or getting robbed by a virus installation. Pirates aren't a homogeneous group, same as customers aren't, so they usually start to complain if a thing doesn't work and they therefore took the risk of downloading without success.That's a human character trait you can really trust.If you are still on the awareness level that your protection or the one from any other fancy thing holds back the bloody pirates, you may have something to discover. Something big it seems.Since this first step for treat awareness therefore fails on your side (which I can't really blame you for, but mention it), I won't question your causal related attitude anymore. I'm a man of my word.But I can't, "sadly", accept people which are confident about not knowing things, so that may have been my driving force on the pages of this thread. :smile:Only confident customers avoid that stuff (and will continue to do so) and some of the not so confident ones may (in reality) even try a 'maybe virus thing' instead of the 50 Dollar one from the arrogant dev.You could set up a poll about this. Make it anonymous and you'll get some percentage of the not so confident guys around, struggling at every free offer if they remember the spoiled valid customers at this or that dev. Doubts?A non-anonymous poll would lead to the same "convincing" results as the one with the 'do you cheat your wife/girlfriend/partner?' one.Of course, this would assume that somebody actually is interested in real numbers instead of ideal values.

[JSkorna 137]

Cool,Guess what, I could point you to a Russian forum where AS has been cracked for a few years now. And guess what, somewhere in the world today a bank got robbed, a jewelery store was broken into, houses were ransacked, and shoplifting took place at Walmart and the same thing will happen tomorrow. Stealing has always been with us and always will be, but we will continue to attempt to minimize the stealing using protection that we feel is best for our business and for our customers.And no anonymous poll is going to give any kind of real numbers.And once again I am done with this thread unless my friend Wolfgang returns.

[CoolP 283]

Ah, right, you still have to fight that EULA battle. Another aspect of .. ah, you know it, I guess. My post is still there and I think Wolfgang is a customer from inside the EU, so the legal things may already be very clear.Jim, no problem, tried my best and couldn't convince you.So, yeah, I'm actually pretty ok with you stepping out of the discussion, but I sometimes had the impression that you were already talking from the outside since the volume came up and the argument's focus was lost. Just my humble interpretation of course and every reader is free to read and judge for himself.I think that a honest wish for good luck is the best I can give you then. May the force of heavy protection be with you while other devs rely on the ones of their customers (and a basic protection), for good reason in my eyes (looking at the thread title again, for example).Your viewpoint therefore will be respected, though, when looking at some things, not understood on my side. :(

[WarpD 824]

Ever heard of 'STEAM'? It's a very, very, very... did I mention very popular method of purchasing games.It does have a requirement: you must be logged into the STEAM server with a valid account to run any and all games purchased via STEAM.Far, far more 'draconian' than anything we do in FS-land... yet it's extremely popular. Ironic as it doesn't fit your image of a 'perfect world'. But then, reality rarely matches one's fantasy. :(

[Chock 17,769]

That's not entirely true, you can run Steam-purchased games offline if you change your settings. There's a FAQ on the steam pages which tells you how to do that.Al

[CoolP 283]

Ever heard of 'STEAM'? It's a very, very, very... did I mention very popular method of purchasing games.It does have a requirement: you must be logged into the STEAM server with a valid account to run any and all games purchased via STEAM.Far, far more 'draconian' than anything we do in FS-land... yet it's extremely popular. Ironic as it doesn't fit your image of a 'perfect world'. But then, reality rarely matches one's fantasy. :(

And because other companies are doing it wrong or even worse, the "wrong" thing itself therefore must be good. That's the logic showing up since you've entered this thread. Did it convince people so far?Yes, I heard of Steam. Try a Google search for steamless to learn about your 'their protection works fine' assumptions (and their basis) then.You may find out that the same "trigger points" (mentioned this phrase before) do exist there and by showing that you are not aware of the treat in this other regime, you therefore prove ..?The companies selling stuff via Steam share the same fate, they all rely on their honest customers and forcing them doesn't work in any way. The distribution platform (that's the main purpose of it, like an AppStore) itself is nice and comfortable to use, but (you may have guessed) we're not talking about the comfortable use of things but the need and "success" of heavy protections, spoiling valid customers.Guys, I'm not up to turning this thread into a 'use this google search word to find out' thingy. That's no Avsim compatible thread tenor and it doesn't do justice to DJ Jose's issue posted.If some of the devs around aren't aware of such simple methods, this only proves one thing in my eyes. You may guess which one I'm talking about and you may laugh as despaired as I do when looking at the fact that those "aware" guys then form up some anti-piracy rules for their valid customers. Combined with an attitude which can't really be called open minded, polite and open for critics, this may fit into a picture which does not increase sales.For me, this looks like 'we always did it like that' and the strong believe that this "always" will help, someday.No problem if someone is unaware about a thing, but a big problem if he just wants to hold that level while setting up rules for others.The piracy thing isn't black/white at all, same as customer attitudes towards certain devs aren't. If one still believes to know it all while stumbling from example to example, getting annoyed if he is disproved or questioned, I can't help him, but I've tried. Others in this thread did too and some others were and still are very good and open minded listeners. I really appreciate that and learned from you, still do.So no across-the-board critics from my side, the targets I'm speaking of should have shown up clearly, in their mentality, knowledge and attitude when getting in touch with a guy asking questions.Nobody would get hurt by admitting that he didn't know about this or that, but staying on this 'I'm the dev, I must know and I do!' level is strange, to say at best.Wonder where this mentality actually comes from.

[WarpD 824]

That's not entirely true, you can run Steam-purchased games offline if you change your settings. There's a FAQ on the steam pages which tells you how to do that.Al

Depends on the game. There are some that you must be logged in to use.CoolP:I'm actually thinking of locking down my next addon with a mandatory live internet connection throughout it's use. I've seen hard cold numbers of actual sales versus number of pirated copies. Of course... to you I'm simply making that up. But when the pirate downloads exceeds sales by a 100 to 1 margin on a product and the sales numbers were quite decent... the product is most definitely popular and wanted... people just don't want to pay for it. Thus the need for stronger copy protection.If you don't like me protecting what is mine... then don't purchase. Simple as that. I'm not going to stop and the more people try to steal from me, the harder I intend to make it. Unlike you... I won't allow any form of 'justification' for theft. That is black and white.

[mganz121 159]

Nobody would get hurt by admitting that he didn't know about this or that, but staying on this 'I'm the dev, I must know and I do!' level is strange, to say at best.Wonder where this mentality actually comes from.

One thing I have learnt from just a few very short years helping to establish a software company, is that most developers do not make good business leaders - just like most business leaders are not developers. Within this hobby, many are stuck in the business "growth" phase (often a home based or part time business) and with that, they are looking at issues such as lost opportunity. Understandably this includes piracy. More unforunately, piracy is the only thing that they can put some effort into as many of these small time developers have not been given the opportunity to develop the business skills neccessary to maximise the opportunities that internet marketing provides. I have seen some enlightening comments in this intruiging thread and I have seen an arrogance that immediately puts people on the back foot with their existing and potential customers. If these guys really want to minimise piracy (and can you really blame them?), they need to look at the reasons why piracy is so rampant. They need to look closer to home.I could spend a lot more time with my comments, but lets just see how this thread goes for now.Cheers DB

[N400QW 205]

Nobody would get hurt by admitting that he didn't know about this or that, but staying on this 'I'm the dev, I must know and I do!' level is strange, to say at best.Wonder where this mentality actually comes from.

Hmm, just returned from a family visit without the daily concern of FS Development and its various pitfalls.Allow me to quote POGO the comic strip hero who once stated that "we have met the enemy and he is us"! :( Fact of the matter is that mankind is mankinds own worst enemy. History is replete with examples of mans inhumanity to man and of course that includes the practice of theft.Prisons are full of folks who've broken mans antitheft laws as well the commandment from the stone tablets, specifically "Thou shalt not steal".Quick question for those who've followed thus far. Have any of mans antitheft methods actually changed the heart and mind of those who practice theft?Perhaps a few you may answer but damn few...Another quick question if I may? Does anyone in this thread actually believe that those bent on theft give a "rats posterior" about EULAs or their specific wording?Since laws and legal penalties are in place does it not seem reasonable to assume that non enforcement of existing law is the true culprit in this dilema?This dilema has been and is ongoing across the globe and across various business entites Example: Music, Videos, Software.Does anyone in this thread really believe the dilema will be solved by arrogant and continued baiting of those deemed inferior by others.The world has certainly changed since overhearing my grandparents and parents remark about the shame associated with certain individuals being discovered as thieves.Today folks routinely practice theft and then brag about it.....sheesh :(

[N400QW 205]

..."they need to look at the reasons why piracy is so rampant. They need to look closer to home."Cheers DB

We've not been "contemplators of our navels" nor "handwringers over society's ills" for a long time nor is there an inbuilt desire to start such practice now.Fact. People steal because they want to and because they can do so with impunity.Please spare us another round of blame the dev for the practice of theft...:(

[TheDanger 182]

You should read the EULA which also says b. License Model. The software is licensed on a per copy per device basis. 2. INSTALLATION AND USE RIGHTS. a. Licensed Device. The licensed device is the device on which you use the software. You may install and use one copy of the software on the licensed device....EDITYou're not very good at nitpicking which is similar to that of a child who's been told he may have one sweet and tries to justify taking two on the grounds that "you didn't say I couldn't have two"

I am only looking at the extracts you posted as I couldn't care less about the EULA so based on the quotes above I would interpret that as :'The software is licensed on a per copy per device basis' = 1 copy installed for every 1 device. Assuming a device is a computer then I could install on as many computers as I want as long as each computer only had one copy installed.Another way of interpreting it would be one hard copy ie physical disks bought from the shop can only be installed on one device using one licence code. Each successive install requires another paid for licence code.BUT the above doesn't state that in that line. Nor does the term 'per copy' be interpreted as one license key install. A copy could be just that. It doesn't state original disk with one license key.'The licensed device is the device on which you use the software' = A computer that has FSX installed and is now in use then becomes the licensed device. As nothing in the above states I can only use one device at a time then in effect I could install onto as many computers as I want and use them all at the same time.There may be other definitions with the EULA which help clear up the above but I am only responding to the quotes presented.

[Chock 17,769]

Most Adobe software words the licensing in that way for a very specific reason, and that reason is...to allow you to install some software for personal use on two devices with the intention that these are likely to be a laptop and a desktop, i.e. you could be at your office and use the software on a desktop, or you could be out and about and use the software on a laptop, but at no point would you be using two copies of the software simultaneously, so you are in effect always using one device and one copy, it's just that it isn't necessarily always the same device. In effect this is a bit like having a CD of some music, and playing at home, then taking the CD out to your car and playing it on the CD player in your car - two devices playing one copy.Al