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blackheart2502

PAJN Runway 26 RNP Approach

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Hello all. Can Ryan or anyone in the know about the FMS on the NG tell me if saving a user built procedure is possible. I used the fly the EMB-145 with the UNS-1K and we could save user built waypoints, procedures, and routes. When the NGX comes out I want to build the RNP approach to runway 26 at Juneau, Alaska. It's a proprietary procedure that Alaska Airlines uses so it's not in any database except their own. I'm just going to use lat/longs or PBD's to build user defined waypoints down the Gastineau Channel. I'm almost sure you can save user defind waypoints, but an FMS wizard on the NG will have to tell me if I can save a whole approach procedure. By the way if anyone out there works for Alaska and has a copy of the approach plate it would be awsome to know the altitudes they use for the approach and the MDA and missed approach altitudes. I've looked all over the internet for any details. I it's not really public info because the FAA and Alaska Airlines don't want people out flying a dangerous approach without the training and equipment to make it safe. You know some goof with a Garmin would try it in his Cessna. I won't have any trouble building a good procedure but I'd love to have the details so I can make it as realistic as possible.Hiram Hunt

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Interesting idea.They have several SIDS and Stars that are not published. Pretty lame when you are trying to dublicate the actual flight.Joe Inama

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If you own any of the other PMDG products, and have delved into the databases, you will find that building your own procedure is relatively easy. A few months ago I added a brand new STAR to LAX (which I will never use, but it was fun). Depending on how the NGX databases work, it could be the same case.

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Probably uses the same sid/star data that all their other addons currently use.

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I suspect these company approaches are included. At least I hope so as WJ has piles of company specific RNP approaches in to smaller fields.

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I suspect these company approaches are included.
I'd be fairly shocked if they were.

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I can guarantee you that company approaches for Alaska, Westjet, etc. are not going to be in the database. You'll have to build them yourself. You can't even get plates for them on the internet.Hiram Hunt

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I suspect these company approaches are included. At least I hope so as WJ has piles of company specific RNP approaches in to smaller fields.
And how do you suppose that PMDG goes about obtaining this proprietary information from the airlines?-john rodgers

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I suspect these company approaches are included.
I highly doubt that.However there are number of published RNP procedures (KDCA, KPSP..) and these might be included.

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I highly doubt that.However there are number of published RNP procedures (KDCA, KPSP..) and these might be included.
Gents-The VAST majority of RNP approaches in the world are airline specific, so there are no circumstances in which you will get access to them without creating them by hand. Creating approaches within our existing NAVDATA is possible (a few of us have done it.)That being said, while the NGX itself is fully RNP compliant, there is more to RNP than most users are aware. At some point we'll give you a full-on education on what RNP is, beyond just the appearance of some numbers in the FMS and on the nav display.Since we have gone through the effort of writing a true "RNP Compliant" control methodology- we want you to gain all of the benefits associated with it, so we are working on some things on the NAVDATA side that will really turn all of this capability loose...I cannot give you more details than this until the contracts are signed- which may not be until late summer... we'll see.

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so we are working on some things on the NAVDATA side that will really turn all of this capability loose
I like the sound of that.

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I just would have figured that since these company specific charts have to be approved by that countries governing body just like other procedures, that they would be available. Thanks for the update Robert.

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I just would have figured that since these company specific charts have to be approved by that countries governing body just like other procedures, that they would be available. Thanks for the update Robert.
Yeah, they'd have to be approved, but I would think only a specific airline would be approved to fly them. If that's the case there wouldn't be much reason for WestJet or Alaska to publish the procedures as nobody else can fly them anyways. It's not like the public approaches where anyone can fly them. Or maybe I'm over-thinking things.

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Yeah, they'd have to be approved, but I would think only a specific airline would be approved to fly them. If that's the case there wouldn't be much reason for WestJet or Alaska to publish the procedures as nobody else can fly them anyways. It's not like the public approaches where anyone can fly them. Or maybe I'm over-thinking things.
Mike-I think it is more a matter of liability limitation and costs. Nearly all major airlines have "company procedures" in their data collection, and these are identified by special markers to the pilots.At my line we had a number of company specific procedures that were designed to smooth the massive traffic inflows to KIAD during our peak hub operation times. Nobody else would even know these particular procedures existed if they were flying into KIAD- and after having spent the money to develop the procedures and get them certified- our company wasn't about to go sharing the wealth...RNP procedures right now are being developed primarily by individual air carriers in order to ease their access to airports with complex airspace or terrain features. Companies like WestJet hire VERY expensive consultants to create the procedures for them- and these procedures give WestJet a competitive advantage in their markets... So why share?

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How do different approaches give an airline a competitive edge? Interesting....

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Robert, thanks for the reply.I didn't realize companies were hiring consultants to create procedures for them. Now that you mention it that does make sense, but it's not something that would have ever crossed my mind. Not that I expect this kind of information is publicly available, nor should it be, but I'd love to know how much WestJet or another company pays for the creation of procedures. I suspect it costs quite a bit more than I think.

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How do different approaches give an airline a competitive edge? Interesting....
I'd venture that it just involves the efficiency of the approach - they can now weave their way right down a narrow mountain valley directly to the runway instead of doing some longer more drawn-out ground-based navaid based approach involving procedure turns and stuff like that. Pretty sure they also have lower minimums so that means less money wasted on go-arounds and diversions.

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The Alaska Airlines RNP approaches for PAJN have significantly lower minimums then the published approaches such as the LDA for RWY 8 for example. This has allowed them to operate in Alaska's famous SE weather well beyond normal limits. I've got access to these approaches, but as I discussed in the ETOPS tread I started a few weeks ago, I'm not about to risk my career over them. I'll see what I can do, but can't promise anything, as this may be a pretty tall order. That being said, I fully attend to build then fly the RNP for RWY 26 when the NGX is in my hands!!!!

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Speaking for my airport (CYQQ), Westjet has gone to the trouble of implementing RNP as a way to cut some corners on regular arrivals. Their RNP approach for Rwy 12 starts at a point 5NM north of the field, then bends around in a left turn to align with the runway on a 4NM final. It's almost like a visual approach, but with limits of about 300' ASL. This saves a lot of time and vectoring on ATC's part, as well as shaving off some flying miles for the pilots. The approach into Kelowna (CYLW) is a real beauty!Jordan Labossiere

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The Alaska Airlines RNP approaches for PAJN has significantly lower minimums then the published approaches such as the LDA for RWY 8 for example. This has allowed them to operate in Alaska's famous SE weather well beyond normal limits. I've got access to these approaches, but as I discussed in the ETOPS tread I started a few weeks ago, I'm no about to risk my career over them. I'll see what I can do, but can't promise anything, as this may be a pretty tall order. That being said, I fully attend to build then fly the RNP for RWY 26 when the NGX is in my hands!!!!
Please don't do anything that jeopardizes your job on account of us - as RSR said we're working on acquiring this data legitimately, we appreciate the thought, but please don't do that.

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Please don't do anything that jeopardizes your job on account of us - as RSR said we're working on acquiring this data legitimately, we appreciate the thought, but please don't do that.
Not to worry Ryan, I wont. I would not, and have not released anything without the proper clearance from the Alaska Air Group. Love the NGX, but I'm not going to blow 14 years over itShame%20On%20You.gif.

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Mike-I think it is more a matter of liability limitation and costs. Nearly all major airlines have "company procedures" in their data collection, and these are identified by special markers to the pilots.At my line we had a number of company specific procedures that were designed to smooth the massive traffic inflows to KIAD during our peak hub operation times. Nobody else would even know these particular procedures existed if they were flying into KIAD- and after having spent the money to develop the procedures and get them certified- our company wasn't about to go sharing the wealth...RNP procedures right now are being developed primarily by individual air carriers in order to ease their access to airports with complex airspace or terrain features. Companies like WestJet hire VERY expensive consultants to create the procedures for them- and these procedures give WestJet a competitive advantage in their markets... So why share?
Robert, if RNP approaches are airline-specific, how does ATC at an airport know which route that airline's aircraft will take on approach? I guess a simple way of putting it is, if the aircraft isn't following a standard approach, how will the ATC know their route, speeds, altitudes, etc to ensure separation from other aircraft?

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Hi Guys,Here is a nice little video from WestJet showing RNP's in action and how they work.http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5284773282371819535#Enjoy!

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I'd be fairly shocked if they were.
Same. I doubt we would see QANTAS RNP approaches into Queenstown - they were developed by Naveris (hope i spelt that correct) soley for QANTAS airline. Doubt we would see them.

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Robert, if RNP approaches are airline-specific
They are not exactly airlines-specific, it only means they are not published. I don't think there is any airport with more than a couple of those RNPs, RNPs are still very rare. Also lets not confuse controllers primary responsibility - aircraft separation (and they can do it regardless of any approaches) and pilot's responsibility - flying the approach.

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