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kabekew

How to slow from 180 kts on five mile final

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These pinned videos about managing airspeed are nice, but they assume you're the only plane out there, and that's why you get to descend at 260 kts and cross the FAF at 160 kts. In the real world of course, ATC often has you at 320 knots on your descent "for spacing," and keeps you at 180 or 190 until five mile final. In these real world conditions, how exactly are you supposed to slow this thing? With a typical 180kts to five mile restriction, I put out full speedbrakes after that to zero effect, and the autopilot likewise can't slow, and I always come in fast. Is there a setting in aircraft.cfg I could change so speedbrakes and/or drag effect can be increased? In the real world of course the 738 will easily pass five mile final at 180 kts then be at 150 or so over the threshold, and they don't need to use speedbrakes.


Gabe Keewaydin
 

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If ATC demanded me to do something I knew I couldn't, it wouldn't be a pleasant radio conversation (I don't frequent NY airspace though)... That being said, being a little fast at 5 miles is one thing (170ish?), being high and fast is another. 190kts at 5 miles is a little extreme, don't you think? Half of the fun of this simulation is the fact you have to manage speed realistically...


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I know the B1900D is a different AC,but NY Ap use to have our crews fly 230 till 2 DME. If you give em an inch,they will take a mileStraight%20Face.gifThat being said,you should have no issues maintaining 170 till GS intercept,if you have enough flaps already extended.Just remember to do gear down at GS alive.


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I know the B1900D is a different AC,but NY Ap use to have our crews fly 230 till 2 DME. If you give em an inch,they will take a mileStraight%20Face.gif
Good God. Of course it's also a prop that can get dirty in a hurry.

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Zachary Waddell -- Caravan Driver --

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Re riveting gear doors was not my favorite maint task,It really chews up the flap tracks too.


Jim Driscoll 9900k@5000,2080TI@1950
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In the real world of course, ATC often has you at 320 knots on your descent "for spacing," and keeps you at 180 or 190 until five mile final. In these real world conditions,
I wonder how you arrived at the idea about those "real world conditions". As a matter of fact controllers are very considerate about aircraft performance limitations. Also the idea that they would keep you at 320 kts for spacing is simply preposterous, we at NASA Ames specialize in analyzing different ATC initiatives and if they need spacing (in true jargon often called miles-in-trail) they go completely different way about it. I suggest you study some of the NASA-Ames papers to aquatint yourself what those real world conditions truly are, there is voluminous data on the subject. Perhaps your experience come from VATSIM but this is not the first time that someone takes it's queues from VATSIM, and arrives at completely wrong conclusions.

Michael J.

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ATC usually don't make you alter your descent speed schedule. If anything they will ask you to slow. A few times i was asked what my climb speed was, and was told to maintain it or greater. In Europe they have you delay configuration and keep your speed up on approach for noise and traffic flow. Most ATC guys are familiar with your aircraft type and know what you can or can't handle. Regardless, getting dirty and trading speed brakes for flaps while watching speed limitations is the best you can do.

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I wonder how you arrived at the idea about those "real world conditions". As a matter of fact controllers are very considerate about aircraft performance limitations. Also the idea that they would keep you at 320 kts for spacing is simply preposterous, we at NASA Ames specialize in analyzing different ATC initiatives and if they need spacing (in true jargon often called miles-in-trail) they go completely different way about it. I suggest you study some of the NASA-Ames papers to aquatint yourself what those real world conditions truly are, there is voluminous data on the subject. Perhaps your experience come from VATSIM but this is not the first time that someone takes it's queues from VATSIM, and arrives at completely wrong conclusions.
I was a real-world controller for 12 years at L.A. Center! So I know how it goes. 320 was always the "fast" speed, 300 was "medium", 280 "slow" and 250 the extreme slowest. 738's we knew could easily do 320. I also flew about 50 "fam" flights in the cockpit before 9/11 and noted how we were usually kept 170-190 fast right until the outer. So yes, these are real-world conditions!

Gabe Keewaydin
 

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Ok, back on topic...The questions that have yet to be answered:Is this possible?If yes, then how?I've been limited to pretty high speeds on approach in the MD-11 before until 5nm, but I know I can slow her down in a hurry. I'd really like to know for the 737 though.Cheers!


Thanks!
Nick Crate
Chief Executive Officer
FedEx Virtual Air Cargo

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Ok, back on topic... The questions that have yet to be answered: Is this possible?If yes, then how? I've been limited to pretty high speeds on approach in the MD-11 before until 5nm, but I know I can slow her down in a hurry. I'd really like to know for the 737 though. Cheers!
I wonder if you go to your FSX installation folder, /simobjects/airplanes/pmdg737-800NGX... and open up aircraft.cfg, look for "flight tuning" section, and set parasite_drag_scalar and induced_drag_scalar to 1.1 (from 1.0), it might make the flight model a little more realistic?

Gabe Keewaydin
 

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Andrew Dixon
"If common sense was compulsory everyone would have it but I am afraid this is not the case"
 

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In 5 years, I have never been asked to maintain 320 on a descent. 300? Yes. As for 190 to the FAF? Simple. Tell them unable. I have done 180 though BUT you dont actually wait until RIGHT at the FAF to reduce the speedon the MCP window.i would start doing it at 1-1.5 miles from the FAF. first the general rule is, if ATC gives you a speed restriction, its +/- 10kts. So starting a reduction in speed a mile back from the FAF is acceptable. Secondly if that couple kts makes THAT much difference for spacing, ATC obviously messed up and is looking for the pilot to cover their butt. Now did I read this correct but did someone say they held 230 knots until 2 dme? 2 dme from the airport? Just one comment, are you crazy? Lol. I got about 4000 hrs in king airs, including 1900s, and would have never tried that. Turboprops can slow down quick but not THAT quick.....safely. If memory serves me correct, manops here in Canada state ATC can not give instructions to maintain a speed higher than 160 kts to FAF for turboprops and 180 for jets. Now DONT quote me on those exact numbers but I am sure the FAA would have similar type rules.

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I wonder if you go to your FSX installation folder, /simobjects/airplanes/pmdg737-800NGX... and open up aircraft.cfg, look for "flight tuning" section, and set parasite_drag_scalar and induced_drag_scalar to 1.1 (from 1.0), it might make the flight model a little more realistic?
Sorry, maybe I should have been more clear. I was asking about the slowing part, no the altering of files. I'll never alter any dynamics for this aircraft, as PMDG obviously know what they are doing.Cheers!

Thanks!
Nick Crate
Chief Executive Officer
FedEx Virtual Air Cargo

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At 180 knots I would have flaps 1 or even flaps 5 extended. With this config at the FAF select gear down and your speed will bleed very quick. Being one step ahead of your aircraft is essential in non standard approaches.


 

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Martin Martinov / VATSIM 1207931

 

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