Some thoughts on Flight...

[Richard Sennett 2,499]

Thanks so much Robert nice to hear you talk about this serious subject and sharing your heart felt feelings Buddy, thank you.

[gweilo8888 1]

Regarding Prepar3D - as far as we know (and I haven't seen anything to suggest otherwise) - P3D isn't a consumer product. The ESP license they're using allows for use in the professional/training markets. Unless they find a way to convert that license into a consumer one and produce a low cost version (relative to the professional one) I'm not sure I see how this is a viable platform for a developer like us just yet.

I agree completely. Everybody touting the $10 monthly developer license is missing something -- you're buying into a license that is not intended for consumer use. Yes, Lockheed has suggested that they'll turn a blind eye to this right now. There's nothing to say that will be the case next year, next month, or even next week. It's perfectly possible that Lockheed will suddenly decide to enforce the developer requirements for any reason whatsoever, at which point you could lose access to your sim and anything third-party that you've purchased to work with it.I'd love to support Prepar3D, but for me, it's not an option right now, and it won't be until it's possible for a consumer to legitimately buy a retail version which doesn't rely on pretending to be a developer, and doesn't rely on a monthly licensing scheme that means my investment in the sim can be nullified at the flick of a switch whenever Lockheed decides to turn the servers off.

[SST 2]

I would have to echo what most everyone here has already said – Thank you very much Robert for sharing the information that you are privy to and your thoughts regarding the situation!To me, it was overall a very sad post to read information wise. Having been involved in flight simming since FS95, it is truly disheartening to see what has become (platform wise) of a program and the effect it has on the community that spans the globe that uses it. This is a program that has been in existence far longer than almost anything else out there. I mean our community predates XBOX, Play Stations, or almost any of the other platforms out there. While I can understand the need for MS to target what they feel is an important demographic (the XBOX users), I find it a little hard to believe they are apparently abandoning a niche they almost completely represent. Whereas there are already several “arcade style” flight games or games with flight portions in them, there really isn’t any other flight simulation options. While we have new platform options that have been coming to market over the last few years, in some ways MS had better potential simply due to the maturity of the franchise. I was truly hoping that FLIGHT would enhance FSX to a multicore capability, take advantage of modern computer hardware and operating systems (64-bit anyone?), and allow an updatable navigation database. Sadly this doesn’t appear to be coming to pass. It is unfortunate that MS doesn’t seem to recognize that add on developers like PMDG go a very long ways in help keeping their program/franchise alive and well. Instead of supporting them, and thus supporting themselves in the long run, they feel the need to try and take a part of their financial pie. It is because of the fantastic add-ons that PMDG and a few others produce that I remain interested and continually coming back for the next generation of flight sim platform. Now that MS appears to be headed in the arcade path, I will have to take my business somewhere else when an appropriate simulation platform comes along that my favorite add-on developers start producing for. I would just like to say thanks again for all the fantastic work y’all do at PMDG and the professionalism you seem to always project in everything you do. Myself, like many others, will be following you and your products wherever you go. In the meantime, I’ll continue to enjoy all of the PMDG aircraft in my hanger and try to patiently wait for the 777!Thanks again!

[gbalean 0]

Thanks Robert for being open and frank in your posts regarding Flight and the current intentions of PMDG.It is a shame to learn that Flight will not be what we were hoping it to be, although I can understand the approach Microsoft has taken to some extent - if I were to think back to being a teenager, I wouldn't half mind Flight. However, there are certainly more 'exciting' games out there these days, so I guess it's success really depends on whether their new target market will be kept entertained by the arcade format and downloadable content. It's a shame they are so eager to implement their own content marketplace and turn it into a game, because the performance and graphics improvements would probably have encouraged many users to make the switch.In any case, the information you have shared with us helps the community to continue investing our time and money towards FSX with confidence, at least for the time being.

Edited January 7, 2012 by gbalean

[strider1 575]

Gents-First- thank you for not letting this thread get "emotional." I was worried that this thread might become one of those events where everyone starts bashing everyone else for their opinions. I'm glad to see the mature discussion prevail.In my lead-off post above, I intentionally made very little mention of "where do we go from here?" This is a topic that has been the subject of internal planning and discussion at PMDG ever since we began to worry about the information we were getting regarding the FLIGHT platform. It is a topic that requires very careful consideration, and business oriented decision making.The simple existence of a platform does not mean that it can/should be supported. When selecting platforms upon which to put our products, we have to very carefully consider what you, our customers are likely to do with the platform once it reaches your hands.A platform that has all of the features we want as developers, but looks like FS98 won't make for a successful marriage. Nor would a platform that has everything we all want, except that it cannot be supported by other developers in our community... (I'm making these examples up... )What happens with the developers in our community will become apparent over time. Some will begin to move their products to new platforms- and some will meet with success and others with failure. Over time all of us that make up the consumer market for flight simulation will eventually congregate around one or two stronger platforms- and that is where the developers will need to be.The key for a company like PMDG that can arguably sway some of the consumer decision making- is to make a careful, considered decision about how we move forward in the years that are still over the horizon.In the near term we are still actively supporting FSX- but we have been engaged for more than a year in a longer term planning process that will (I hope!) see us supporting multiple platforms with our products in order to give you the best range of options for your simming hobby.I would like to see PMDG becoming a bit more deep in terms of the platforms that we support. The work that we do on the code-side is to a very large degree, platform independent and can be ported between platforms with some work. How much work will depend on the tools available for that platform... I do not want to give the impression that any of this is EASY, but it has been part of our planning process during the development of the NGX and 777.Now- on the model side things get a bit more loose... This is an area that will make or break our participation on various platforms, and each platform/project marriage must be evaluated carefully.With all of that said, we have been very well supported by Laminar Research. They have been gracious in providing us with copies of the release version of XPlane10 to work with- and as previously mentioned I am adding someone to the team who will be spearheading the process of porting one of our existing aircraft into Xplane10.What we learn and how well that process goes will, to a large degree, dictate whether we choose to support that platform in the long run.The folks at Lockheed Martin have been the polar opposite. Our Commercial Division has been reaching out to them for a year without any reply back. (Well- actually we gave up on them in September...so make that nine months) Perhaps I'm just getting cranky in my old age- but if we are going to sell a bunch of commercial licenses for them I'm really not inclined to start shelling out money to buy their over-priced, dressed up FSX for every member of the development team without knowing for certain where they plan on taking the platform.And it is also worth noting that that we haven't closed the door on developing for FLIGHT. I have been given the distinct impression that MS is not interested in having external partners- and it has been my experience that this lack of interest on their part is because they couldn't convince all of us in the development community to "shut up and get in line." But that isn't to say that if/when they decide to bring the platform to the point where they want external support we won't consider the platform. It just depends...After all- at the end of the day, PMDG and our customers have a shared interest in finding the best platform for 2015 and beyond.We'll find it... All of us... It is a team effort.

Credit Card ready when you have something ready for XPX !!!

[IcedUpPitotTube 0]

Very nice post, Robert.I don't want to bash on Microsoft here, but this is really the final blow to the FLIGHT project that will make it flop with the original FSX/FS9 community: shunning the third-party developers for expressing their own opinion. Basically, Microsoft was giving you the finger for politely refusing their offer. Wow.Anyways, to summarize the whole FLIGHT failure (at least in most of the simmers' opinions): Microsoft tried to target everyone. They failed to heed to the saying: "If you try to please everyone, you end up pleasing no one."Looking forward eagerly to the 777, PMDG! :)

Edited January 7, 2012 by IcedUpPitotTube

[VBHB 298]

My respect for you guys has shot up a thousand fold, good decision. Microsoft are such scumbags! Can't wait for the Dash and the 777.If you guys start developing for X-Plane might have to check it out!

[OzWhitey 3,353]

Can I suggest that PMDG buy a single $10 licence for P3D and see what they make of it? I understand that LM haven't been supportive, but emotions aside P3D is probably the most viable candidate to progress flightsim tech over the next year or two.As mentioned above, the initial development would just be the installer, and you could possibly sell this as a minimal cost cross-licencing option to existing customers like orbx has just started doing with pnw.I'll send you the $10 if you like!

[ianf 1]

Robert,Thanks for being so upfront and honest with all the info you have shared with us. I will be interested to see a PMDG product working in X-Plane, especially the 737NGX (I have both 800/900 and 600/700 expansion), however I am more than happy with FSX for the foreseeable future.Kind Regards

[Driver8 0]

Well, honestly, i'd been holding off on the NGX purchase because i did not know what the "lifespan" of that purchase would be with Flight on the horizon. Since it now seems Flight is going to be exactly what i feared it would, looks like i'll be purchasing the NGX at some point soon after all :)To be honest, after all the years accumulating add-ons for FSX, i was actually getting somewhat nervous about moving to a new sim anyway. Call me crazy, but generally i've been pleased with FSX since the service packs and since i got some hardware several years ago that was capable of finally running it halfway decent. And i still have room to go before i get every FSX graphical feature enabled. So my thinking is that supporting FSX will be a pretty safe bet for at least a couple more years. But, I wonder what the future of Microsoft is going to be with regard to flight simulation. My problem here with their decision is that indeed, we are not the target audience - but that brings up the question: who IS their target audience? IS there even a market for a "fast-paced CIVIL AVIATION game"??? Sounds to me like they're trying to make a combat-style flight game without the combat.... I really don't personally know anyone who this would interest - anyone i know either has no interest in flying a plane where you can't blow up everything around you, or they want to enjoy the freedom that FSX and its predecessors offer but just on a casual level rather than as a hobby. So, i would not be entirely surprised to see this as the end of Microsoft's involvement in flight simulation. And if this really is the end for true flight simulators from Microsoft, it may be the 3rd party developers themselves that help to determine what direction the community follows down the road as far as which sim will replace it....

[Marith 2]

Thank you Robert for your honest and frank postings on this matter. I have always had a lot of respect for your company because you turn out quality products and that respect has increased because you obviously show good business sense.History has shown that partnering with Microsoft has always ended up badly for the 3rd party developers, so if Microsoft try and reach out to you again, I hope you continue to stay strong and do what is right for yourselves as well as the community.I am saving madly for more PMDG purchases this year especially the 777 which will be awesome!Thanks again, Martin

[saranghaeyeo 0]

I salute randazzo for his decision. I personally am a beta tester for Flight and ever since I downloaded it two days ago and had a look at it, I've never double clicked the shortcut anymore. Like everyone concluded, it's an arcade game and will stay as an arcade game thanks to MS's development path to cater their almost non-existing 'target audience'. With all the time i've spent in FSX, this wish of an upgraded realistic simulation for aviation enthusiasts like me or even licensed aviators from Flight going down the drain is not a major problem but just a longer wait for a better sim. After all, we've been always waiting patiently for PMDG and it's highly realistic birds. Maybe MS will get to their senses that the FS society is not based on a mere game. The only doubts in my mind would be whether the upcoming Windows 8 will continue to be able to support FSX. After all, MS might make W8 totally incompatible with FSX.As a commercial member of the flight sim community and just a student myself, I would think going all in for P3D isnt an option. How many months would I have to pay $10 developer license? which btw isn't cheap for me on the other side of the world. And $500 for a full license is way out of discussion.I've gotten XPX just a few weeks ago as a gamble that sooner or later the FS community will slowly transition to the IMHO similar or better version of FSX. There are still flaws and bugs in the game which I hope Laminar will soon patch off and give us a better sim. All in all, I'm already spending some time with this sim and I was relieved that randazzo announced that he will bring in another member to the team to facilitate in porting some PMDG products over to XPX. I hope this will sooner or later be the mainstream sim for all of us. After all, it's 5 years before people start dropping FS9 and turning to FSX. And as far to the horizon as I can see, I'll still be flying FSX with PMDG's NGX and soon the 777 plus the FSLabs A3xx (hopefully) for the following years to come. Until then, I'm sure someone somewhere would have developed a sim to cater us simmers. But for now, I'm a proud supporter and follower of PMDG's products and it's decisions.Thanks, Brandon.

[Benjamin J 751]

I'm surprised tp hear how difficult it is for you to get in contact with the Prepar3d team. It seems to me that right now it would be the most logical platform to move over to because of the similarity to FSX. That said, I'm happy to hear PMDG will support FSX for the coming time, because it is as you say: as the hardware matures, so does the sim. I'm looking forward to the coming developments, I think it's an exciting time ahead of us! And, as always, can't wait for the 777!

[aceridgey 330]

Cheers Robert, The community here on AVsim [pmdg forums in particular] is the best community I have come across, I dearly hope it remains that way!

Regarding Prepar3D - as far as we know (and I haven't seen anything to suggest otherwise) - P3D isn't a consumer product. The ESP license they're using allows for use in the professional/training markets. Unless they find a way to convert that license into a consumer one and produce a low cost version (relative to the professional one) I'm not sure I see how this is a viable platform for a developer like us just yet.

Thanks for the update, I completely agree,Politeness costs nothing! I am surprised people would even reply to you guys.

[rocketfs 2]

Respect for the position PMDG has taken into this matter.I feel grumpy already: for years I try to explain people that FS is NOT a game but a simulation. Now we are waiting for hordes of kids saying "you play FLIGHT too?"...In that case I'll tell them to show following at EBBR: VOR approach 07L followed by circling approach 25R. ceiling: 1000'. (I know, IRL circling at EBBR is prohibited)Bert Van Bulck