Change is always hard.

As for app stores being locked down, that is entirely up to the company running it.

 

Great post.....That is the one part of it I would prefer not to have happen is all. I prefer open markets when it comes to the PC.

 

Historically it has created a lot of diversity on this MSFS community with many options of venders or purchase from the developer.

 

Appstore is a good concept, even better as it will backup you current installation without having to reinstall everything like we do with FSX today, that alone is the biggest benefit. Also your point about new users having addon's in one place would be true too without having to search and discover over the internet for them

 

But just don't lock it down like the Sims Marketplace or anything like that then most of us traditional users will be happy :lol:

Reading appstore in conjunction with flight simulators, I think of Flight and.. failure. :unsure: Big time. I liked Flight on other aspects though.

 

Matthew has a point. The sheer impression of a central store may be nice but there's more about it. Fine print. And goates has a point too on the small devs maybe being able to present themselves better. But, when looking closer, there isn't a single centralized store running which does not use strange and questionable methods to lock down the system or just render it to a monitoring tool while e.g. not allowing used sales. Examples? Plenty!

 

If you don't agree to new Steam 'subscriber agreements', you are locked out of your previous purchases. Not to mention that some paragraphs of these agreements aren't enforceable and raise questions on how they (Steam) form up their legal policies. Customer rights? Not a focus.

 

Is it that what you want? A company controlling and PR-wording the market? I'm asking because the centralized shops always come with the full package of advantages and downsides. You can't just pick and choose. 'It's the system, stupid.' ^_^

 

Is it really that hard to buy new soft for the sim? Are people only able to buy software through one major interface and platform? I'd say no. I'd also say that I don't want people to mentally revert back that much. For my other hobbies, I don't have a central store and I also don't want one. Not like that.

 

The variety of free sites like Avsim, forums of all kind or just some newsletters from your favourite shops should allow you to find new software and, as a dev, approach new customers. Not to mention word of mouth on e.g. sites like Facebook or, old school, by really talking to people about your hobby.

 

Want to appear in a more centralized shop system? Pick one (of many)! That's different than choosing whether you want to follow the mob or remain an outsider since there only is one shop. Monopoly.

 

It does not need closed systems and 'dumb' users to be successful. I already buy too much for FSX. :lol: Another kind of dumbness, I admit.

 

 

And there's another hurdle. The more you render the system to be the magic single button solution, the more you give away from the flexibility you once had. That very flexibility allowing the old FSX to still run adequately looking addons or even implementing new features. Credits go to the devs, sales too. Buy direct.

 

So while it may be a pita at times, to watch for this or that config file or mind applying an update in the correct order, it's what gives you control of things. And that's the cost of being flexible and open. :smile:

In no particular order:

Good points. Also more focusing on the actual abilities of the sim.

 

 

A word on the crowd-funding enthusiasm. The example was given with Star Citizen, coming in at way higher amounts than planned. They had 2 million as their first target and reached over 6. However, this money isn't their main resource. From the dev's posts, they have private investors in the back with double digit values (in million Dollars) investment.

 

So we may see that crowd-funding as a test on the initial feedback and interest towards the game. Of course, also getting some more money from it, but not in the magnitudes like the investors can do. So don't look at the 6 million bucks as the overall development costs for that title. Those seem to be much higher.

We have private funding (not publisher funding). The crowd funding side helps to determine how ambitious we can be upfront. The overall game wont cost $20M upfront, but probably by the end of the first year of public release we will have spent that much between the original game and the ongoing content that year

Reading appstore in conjunction with flight simulators, I think of Flight and.. failure.

 

That MS implemented it so poorly doesn't make the idea a bad one.

 

But, when looking closer, there isn't a single centralized store running which does not use strange and questionable methods to lock down the system or just render it to a monitoring tool while e.g. not allowing used sales. Examples? Plenty!

 

Customer rights? Not a focus.

 

Developers can include anti-consumer clauses and overly intrusive DRM without the help of a centralized app store too. Ubisoft is notorious for it, as one example.

 

not allowing used sales.

Credits go to the devs, sales too. Buy direct.

 

First of all, a centralized store could make it much easier to make sure the seller has truly removed their copy before it is transferred. That no current app store does this does not mean it can't be done. Of course this runs head long into your point about always buying from the dev directly, and is a large part of why current app stores don't get into the transferring thing. They would much rather everyone buy a new copy from the dev. Want to really support the developers? Don't buy used.

 

The variety of free sites like Avsim, forums of all kind or just some newsletters from your favourite shops should allow you to find new software and, as a dev, approach new customers. Not to mention word of mouth on e.g. sites like Facebook or, old school, by really talking to people about your hobby.

 

The most successful apps in current app stores do plenty of this, and an app store certainly does not remove the need for any of it. Having one central store, that is also basically guaranteed to be legitimate and above board, just makes it easier for people to go get the great app they heard about. It can also remove the need for the developer to handle the download and payment processing aspects.

 

As I said above, having a central app store doesn't mean it has to be the only way. Google has their own Play store for Android devices, but they don't stop anyone else from setting up competing stores. Which Amazon and others have done. Apple has an app store for Mac computers, but one can still download and install programs from elsewhere.

 

Want to bring in new blood and grow the hobby? Make it as easy as possible for new users to join and grow beyond the base sim. More users means a larger market and more money for third parties to develop more add-ons. Not to mention making it more attractive for a developer to actually build and maintain a new sim. Central app stores, while not always perfect in their current incarnations, have helped greatly elsewhere. I don't see why one wouldn't work in flight simming.

Want to really support the developers? Don't buy used.

Nice one. I actually like to have the option. Since all the closed markets currently don't allow that or even try to write you down to being close to pirates, one may sense the problems that causes.

 

If a customer, being able to decide whether to buy used or new items, then heads for a fresh license, even better. It's about having options. :wink: Same goes for selling stuff by the way.

 

On the 'new blood' issue. I wouldn't communicate it as if there are tech interested folks with Internet access out there, not knowing that flight sims and major sites/forums exist. If you enter 'flight simulator' in a search engine, you will receive the full overview. If you don't enter it, you may not be interested in it. This happens, I saw it. :lol: And if we are honest and take a step back, it may actually come in as a very boring hobby. Philately issues, lol.

 

And the rest? Well, they will already have found.. us. And, with having done so, it now depends on what they see, hear and experience when it comes to just using the sim, their sim, for a few weeks or for years to come. So those free and differently biased sites, blogs and systems already provide what's needed. Diversity is a win, but comes at a price.

 

Can a single centralized and, in PR words, 'well maintained' shopping platform offer this? Assuming that it works just for shopping, not as close to malware like some current offers. I doubt it. Can it solve problems which are inherent to a community or can it work around issues the actual sim incorporates? Same answer. Unfortunately, maybe not the problem solver some wish it to be. :mellow:

There are pros and cons for sure with the current addon anarchy and a more regulated appstore. My vote will always go to the solution with the best usability. I'm a less is more kind of guy. I do however find it important to have a system that keeps devs in the business.

 

As for direct support of devs I don't do it. I just don't like to spred personal and credit card info around the Internet. I use simmarket almost exclusively for that reason.

 

There are pros and cons for sure with the current addon anarchy and a more regulated appstore. My vote will always go to the solution with the best usability. I'm a less is more kind of guy. I do however find it important to have a system that keeps devs in the business.

 

As for direct support of devs I don't do it. I just don't like to spred personal and credit card info around the Internet. I use simmarket almost exclusively for that reason.

 

I kind of suspect that its the same for a lot of us. We pick one or two preferred stores and stay there. All those other sites become like anonymous seagulls on a beach, which is to say, mostly ignored. (unless they somehow become the sole outlet for a must-have item)

 

Another thing is the "kaleidoscopic" effect of the marketplace. There are so many places to buy, with so many quirky/confusing ways of listing their merchandise (and even of packaging downloads) that it can create an extremely off-putting mess for people attempting to maneuver through the system and locate quality items.

 

Installation and de-installation can be good or horrible depending on the vendor (and maybe the phases of the moon) and overall you end up having to deal with multiple formats and policies to keep track of whats going on in your library; not to even mention the chore of keeping up with possible updates.

 

For the old hands who swim like through these waters like dolphins, it might seem ok, but to others, its sometimes like the aftermath of an explosion at a confetti factory. I wouldn't mind seeing experiments along the lines of an in game store.

This discussion iis surely academic.

 

Until some one decides a new totally flight simulator is commercially viable and funds its development, there won't be one. I see no sign of any serious interest.

SM being a good example. Perfectly reasonable to use their catalogue and shopping system. Same goes for other big names and newer ones like the Avsim shop I guess. If one of them would ever let you down, you vote with your wallet. Options. Nice to have those.

 

Differences on the installation or download process? Well, I could be dangerously wrong but my guess is that a zip file, containing an exe, and a simple serial code or one time activation does not spoil anyone. And installing addons mainly is clicking 'yes, ok, yes, ok, ok' with pointing to the FSX folder in between or just confirming that it's somewhere. B)

 

Of course, the more detailed the stuff gets and the more workarounds are needed to get the most of the FSX standard, the more complicated that installation may grow. Same goes for the latest and greatest tech in copy protection.

 

In general, it may be the sim itself which is able to frustrate people. That same open structure allowing for all sorts of tweaks and tricks. Well, at least for FSX that's the case as the default one doesn't look nice and the addon-loaded thing may need a bit of help to really run fine. Looking at my files, it's actually mess and I couldn't even explain it in short sentences how that one is supposed to even start. But it does! :lol:

 

At the same time, I would miss the option to correct some things on planes and scenery or just adjust them to my liking. Freedom of movement. One button protected auto-update all in one did you notice our latest sales buy now solutions may not offer that one. I saw folks praising those and later missing their options or just realizing that the single vendor policy isn't what they thought it was.

 

So if that's the problem, I fully agree. That old sim, without help from forums like these, may be a pain in the arse at times. By the way, X-Plane works much better in that regard and sometimes seems to get forgotten on discussions about modern sim engines. Their flawlessly working update process alone is worth a look.

 

So the question would be. Do we really need a new sim or are we just stuck with one (mainly FSX/P3D) and wish for that one to receive a significant update/successor?

Until some one decides a new totally flight simulator is commercially viable and funds its development, there won't be one. I see no sign of any serious interest.

 

Sadly you are right, but I didn't see any sign of serious interest for the disaster called Flight either, and one of the worlds largest software companies made it anyway. X-Plane keeps on keeping on, unknown to me how and why, so I allow myself to drift off into a sweet dream every now and then. That said, the golden era of flight simming might be over. All things come to an end.

So the question would be. Do we really need a new sim or are we just stuck with one (mainly FSX/P3D) and wish for that one to receive a significant update/successor?

 

Need? Maybe not. Want? Certainly.

 

Tech change and people with it. The ESP platform is a dinosaur. Graphically we live in a different computer age now and to attract new blood into this hobby a new sim must be state of the art.

 

Hard core simmers are probably not the best place to go for advice though. As a group I don't see us agreeing on much. People use FSX for so many different things and have very different needs and wants from a new sim...

That said, the golden era of flight simming might be over.

Is it really over? Not sure. We have more companies than ever working in that niche. And there addons where I can't even understand what they do and why somebody would ever need them. But they get sold and new versions arrive. Even that small homecockpit builder niche seems to run. And that's expensive and 'nerdy' stuff.

 

I fully agree that the FSX market may benefit from some ground-breaking new input. From a killer feature, from a huge campaign, from.. coolness and a less nerdy image. This may indeed not take place with the current setup. And it's not a problem of the way addons get sold in my eyes.

 

Hard core simmers are probably not the best place to go for advice though.

Fully agreed. We are discussing which weather addon is the best, which parameters in a cryptic config file work and which 737 is more 'real'. And that's happening on a daily basis. Me is guilty.

1) An integrated addon/appstore with one click purchases and automatic downloads/installs/updates.

2) Freeware addons allowed in appstore, but with some kind of quality control system. Automatic system to merge addons, so that scenery for a region is merged into one package (you enable a region, then all new quality freeware for that region will download each time you start the sim).

3) A higly upgradable platform where features can be added as time goes by. Rather have a decent base simulator now, than waiting ten years for every feature under the sun wanted by the "community". Maybe a voting system where the 10-20 most popular features are to be worked on for each update.

4) Denser landclass system with a lot more classes and more variety of textures (250x250m).

5) A user friendly intergrated SDK that take NO technical know how to use for scenery creation. Creating a house f. ex. should be as simple as in "The Sims" game series. Roads, airstrips etc. should be drawn with a road tool (like in Outerra). Landclass added on the fly from top down view with a grid, much like an excel spreadsheet etc.

 

Like Matthew said, good concept.

 

Maybe some of your ideas are very applicable. Like installing new scenery, for example.

 

Maybe an easier scenery designer where it is much easier to create 3D objects and add professional looking airports. You would have to look at either crowdfunding or convincing a developer that they would make enough sales.

 

Again, good ideas.

 

Great post.....That is the one part of it I would prefer not to have happen is all. I prefer open markets when it comes to the PC.

 

Historically it has created a lot of diversity on this MSFS community with many options of venders or purchase from the developer.

 

Appstore is a good concept, even better as it will backup you current installation without having to reinstall everything like we do with FSX today, that alone is the biggest benefit. Also your point about new users having addon's in one place would be true too without having to search and discover over the internet for them

 

But just don't lock it down like the Sims Marketplace or anything like that then most of us traditional users will be happy :lol:

 

I prefer open markets full stop!

It's interesting to note that quite a lot of this appeared in the Aerosoft forums under their discussions of a possible new sim. Even more interesting was that Microsoft was apparently paying attention, and more than a few of those ideas showed up in MSFlight.