The attitude of some here is that they produce their work and then demand credit for it.

 

I have never seen anyone DEMANDING credit for their work, but those that provide their work for free, no matter what conditions they place on distribution, absolutely deserve it.

 

Unfortunately your attitude seems to be more that, it is wrong for freeware authors to like to get credit for their labours. A pretty petty and spiteful way of looking at things, these people have spent an awful lot of time to enhance this hobby with little or nothing gained from it, other than the satisfaction derived from releasing their work and any credit from those that can be bothered to give it.

 

For those that worked on all aspects of WOAI I would like to say a big thanks, since they convinced me that AI traffic can be more than an annoyance. All the best for what they go on to.

 

G

kannwar,

 

sorry but I would advise you to take a break (and a big chill pill too :lol: - sorry, just having a laugh, don't take that comment badly) from this thread. I'm not forcing you away or anything, just please reconsider some of your statements before typing them in. I'm offering the same advise to others in the thread too.

 

I recognise how some freeware developers can have restrictive terms of use for their work and I've seen good freeware disappear or die simply because of this. I know its a shame when that happens. However they are the authors of the work and they have final say on what terms of use they wish to distribute it under - its their right in the end and we have to respect that. The sad truth is that in many cases they have valid reasons for doing this.

Truth of the matter is I've seen it way too many times, someone tries to steal the credit and to pass themselves off as the creator of freeware that they have done nothing to develop or have contributed very little towards.

Also - people grabbing others' work, then changing it for the worst and uploading it all over the place.

 

I would also ask you what you have created or done to further develop FS? Perhaps if you have created a good freeware FS add-on and someone went by, took it and claimed all credit for it - then you may understand the pain that causes to the original creator.

Until these things stop happening, you can not expect freeware authors to just sit back, accept it all and keep producing new add-ons just to make you happy. These are the type of things and attitudes that have contributed to the present situation. Its not just as simple and straightforward as ego boosting and gratification of freeware authors' egos. The situation is more complex than that.

 

While I recognise some of your points and its a great big shame when that type of situation happens with freeware - I do not think its right to insult freeware authors in general with some of the statements you and others have made in this thread.

 

 

IMHO I think if it was just WOAI itself involved, they probably would leave the files up, but with others involved, I don't think they really had much of a choice. It may be possible that some if not all of the developers/contributors , may take it upon themselves to distribute their files, We'll just have to see what happens.

 

If possible I would advise WOAI to let us leave the files on-line and have the individual contributors contact us about which WOAI files they want removed. Maybe that way some (hopefully most) of the WOAI files can remain on-line.

 

 

EDIT:

on a separate and happier note:

 

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to all!

After a quick look over the forums and library, I'm off to spend time with family.

If possible I would advise WOAI to let us leave the files on-line and have the individual contributors contact us about which WOAI files they want removed. Maybe that way some (hopefully most) of the WOAI files can remain on-line.

 

That would be great, if they agree to that

 

Thanks for doing this, and Merry Christmas to you too!!!

..

And.. that's the most constructive post in the whole thread. :smile:

Yes, but you are still forgetting one thing. They made, and own 100% of all the files on there.

 

You can't just 'demand' they leave them up? They can do whatever they want with them. Every developer has 100% the right to do it. That's the beauty of a free market and country!

 

I think you are rather confused here. Copyrights grant a monopoly to the copyright holder. Monopolies are antithetical to free markets. You either believe in free markets, or you believe in copyrights, but you cannot believe in both at the same time.

 

What is disturbing about this is that World of AI did not create anything. It is just a website hosting other people's work. I'm not even clear if there is such an entity as "World of AI" It's not at all clear that this is a corporate or similar entity. If it is not some entity, then we have a so called copyright claim from something which has no legal existence. You might as well be talking about a copyright being held by the Tooth Fairy, Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny.

 

To the extent there is any copyright at all, it is held by the original creators of the item. The World of AI, whatever that thing is, at most, held a non-exclusive license to host the creations of the people uploading there. I actually find it rather offensive when people argue that the original creators somehow have lost their copyright by the uploading of their creations to a site like this; and the site has acquired that copyright solely by virtue of a file being uploaded there by someone who may or may not be the creator of that file. To the extent there is any copyright claim by someone who uploads to a file hosting site with clear knowledge that other people will be downloading, distributing and using that file, it is clear that any such copyright is held by the original creator and not the site itself.

 

Now, hosting sites like this are not at all unusual on the web. In fact, it is fair to note that this site, Avsim, is one such hosting site. Typically, hosting sites make it pretty clear that when someone uploads something to that site, they are giving up all rights to their uploads. This protects both the site itself and anyone downloading from that site from claims they are pirating. Without such a clear understanding, anyone who downloads from places like World of AI, Avsim, the Google Warehouse, etc., etc. is committing piracy.

 

Now, of course, it seems rather disingenuous that someone would upload to a site like World of AI and Avsim, knowing full well that these site will make their uploads available for download by other, then turn around and claim that anyone downloading and using these files has stolen them. One can only hope that those running a site like Avism or World of AI would make it absolutely clear that anyone uploading to their site is giving up all claims to the files in question. A failure to do so is really really foolish. (And yes, I am raising a red flag for those individuals running the Avsim library.)

 

Without such a clear understanding, anyone who downloads from a hosting site, like Avsim, is committing copyright infringement -- that is they are pirating. In the Avsim library, for example, I found no terms or conditions that anyone uploading to Avsim is giving up any copyright claims to their uploads. The only conclusion that can be drawn from this is that anyone downloading from Avsim is stealing copyrighted material and that Avsim is a pirate site. (And how many people are getting my reductio ad absurdum argument?)

 

Of course, these sorts of issues do not arise in truly free markets. These issues only arise in highly unfree and monopolized markets.

What is disturbing about this is that World of AI did not create anything. It is just a website hosting other people's work. I'm not even clear if there is such an entity as "World of AI" It's not at all clear that this is a corporate or similar entity. If it is not some entity, then we have a so called copyright claim from something which does not exist.

 

That's the reason they must remove the files. WOAI does not own the copyrights to the work, they have an agreement with the developers (Which do hold the copyrights) to distribute in their packages. With the dissolvement of WOAI, that agreement no longer exists, hence the reason the files must go, unless the original developers give permission to leave them up, which is what Momtchil says he's going to try and do for the files on AVSIM. Let's hope he is successful!!

That's the reason they must remove the files. WOAI does not own the copyrights to the work, they have an agreement with the developers (Which do hold the copyrights) to distribute in their packages. With the dissolvement of WOAI, that agreement no longer exists, hence the reason the files must go, unless the original developers give permission to leave them up, which is what Momtchil says he's going to try and do for the files on AVSIM. Let's hope he is successful!!

 

And you have missed my point entirely.

 

Nowhere on the World of AI site do I see any statements that anyone uploading there has given up any of their rights to their creations. Which means that anyone downloading from the World of AI, in the past, present and future is a thief and a pirate. It also means that the World of AI is a pirate site.

 

In fact, using this reasoning, the only difference between the World of AI and The Pirate Bay, is that The Pirate Bay does not actually host any files.

 

Of course, this probably is not what the people uploading to the World of AI had in mind when they made the uploads. Generally people uploading to file hosting sites do so with the understanding that other people will download and use their files. In fact, it seems rather crazy that someone would upload to the World of AI (or Avsim for that matter), then be upset because people are downloading the file which was uploaded.

 

Which just goes to show the lack of thinking coming from the copyright scolds.

And you have missed my point entirely.

 

Nowhere on the World of AI site do I see any statements that anyone uploading there has given up any of their rights to their creations. Which means that anyone downloading from the World of AI, in the past, present and future is a thief and a pirate. It also means that the World of AI is a pirate site.

 

 

As long as the copyright holders have given WOAI permission to distribute their works in the manner that WOAI distribute them then there is no issue, You do not have to give up your rights to files to allow others to host files for you.

 

G

Sad to see WOAI go. Thank you WOAI for being there for all that time. Wish you best of luck in your futures. Again, thank you.

Thank you WOAI for being there for all that time.

That's the spirit! :smile: I think this also applies to the folks making sure that the files are hosted at e.g. Avsim. Sometimes, we seem to forget that 'free' stuff requires a lot of work. Makes me think about the donate button by the way.

 

Momtchil says he's going to try and do for the files on AVSIM. Let's hope he is successful!!

I double the hope of yours, Tom.

kannwar,

 

sorry but I would advise you to take a break (and a big chill pill too :lol: - sorry, just having a laugh, don't take that comment badly) from this thread. I'm not forcing you away or anything, just please reconsider some of your statements before typing them in. I'm offering the same advise to others in the thread too.

 

 

Good advice and statements Momtchil. I'm not really qualified to participate in this discussion which so far has involved far more intelligent individuals than I could ever hope to be so I'll stop posting my rantings. I'm just disappointed/angry to see another good aspect of our hobby going the way of the Dodo. Thank you for your patient response.

He's just pointing out that freeware doesn't mean that one can do what he wants with it. If the author sets up conditions and if those are enforceable then they apply. Just because something can be downloaded for free doesn't mean that there aren't any legal bindings involved.

 

Even if people don't care to enforce their rights, they can. And that's the point. So there's a morale and a legal side to look at, so to speak. On the morale one, I would always ask the author if I'm allowed to use or distribute his stuff. Playing fair that is. :smile:

 

I think that many people in the FS community should take a legal course in a university on copyright law. Must of what I hear in these forums is drivel.

 

All the rights you have regarding copyright are spelled out in US Copyright Law and more information can be found at http://www.copyright.gov/.

 

The only rights a copyright holder has are those that are given to him by federal law in the country where there is jurisdiction. He cannot make up his own rules just because he feels like it.

 

If I am going to violate a copyright, I have to make money or take money away from the copyright holder. I have to take something the holder is selling and give it away for free or make money from it. Notice that the key word here is "money". If I take something that has been distributed over the internet to the world for free, and then give it to others for free, I am not violating any copyright law. If I alter something that is being given away to the world for free and alter it (such as with an aircraft texture) and then give it away for free, I am not violating any copyright law.

 

I can be arrested and charged with a felony for selling something that I do not have the rights to. I can be sued in civil court for distributing something for free (such as music) that is being sold for money (such as through iTunes). I can be sued in civil court for selling something that I do not have the rights to.

 

The purpose of copyright law is to keep other people from making money from your work. But if you are giving away your work for free to everybody on the planet who wants it, you have no legal right to change your mind months or years later and tell people that you did not want them to pass on your work after all.

I think that many people in the FS community should take a legal course in a university on copyright law. Must of what I hear in these forums is drivel.

 

All the rights you have regarding copyright are spelled out in US Copyright Law and more information can be found at http://www.copyright.gov/.

 

The only rights a copyright holder has are those that are given to him by federal law in the country where there is jurisdiction. He cannot make up his own rules just because he feels like it.

 

If I am going to violate a copyright, I have to make money or take money away from the copyright holder. I have to take something the holder is selling and give it away for free or make money from it. Notice that the key word here is "money". If I take something that has been distributed over the internet to the world for free, and then give it to others for free, I am not violating any copyright law. If I alter something that is being given away to the world for free and alter it (such as with an aircraft texture) and then give it away for free, I am not violating any copyright law.

 

I can be arrested and charged with a felony for selling something that I do not have the rights to. I can be sued in civil court for distributing something for free (such as music) that is being sold for money (such as through iTunes). I can be sued in civil court for selling something that I do not have the rights to.

 

The purpose of copyright law is to keep other people from making money from your work. But if you are giving away your work for free to everybody on the planet who wants it, you have no legal right to change your mind months or years later and tell people that you did not want them to pass on your work after all.

 

Thank you for the informative post. Hopefully that will put the matter to rest.

Hopefully that will put the matter to rest.

 

Snowball's chances in hell... lol

 

- Sent from my rooted, Verizon Samsung Galaxy Nexus LTE smartphone via Tapatalk because haters gonna hate.

 

 

I think that many people in the FS community should take a legal course in a university on copyright law. Must of what I hear in these forums is drivel.

That's a 'nice' opening sentence.

 

Since you've quoted me in full but answered to something different (buzz word?), I may offer some help. On the communicational level to start with. Don't worry, nobody will need a course. ^_^

 

We've discussed at least two sides of the topic. The legal one and the morale aspects. The latter being open to the reader's bias but surely being bound to a kind of respect. So when the same guy who develops and distributes software for free asks me to not spread his work any longer, I will comply. You will see the Avsim mods behaving in the same way. If they get the email from the WOAI folks to please delete their files, they will do so.

 

Your link given does explain e.g. ownership and that 'free to use' isn't automatically in the public domain. It also explains that all software is copyrighted on creation and therefore covered by copyright law. Yes, this includes freeware. So there's not much of a confusion around.

 

Maybe you are just pointing out that there can be license terms setting up certain conditions regarding the use of the soft. Those would be explained via an EULA and may indeed not derive from copyright law. I don't know if the WOAI stuff had one though. But it would be wrong to communicate freeware as being free of legal bindings. Misconception.

 

Edited by user. Quotes removed. Doesn't make sense to stir the pot again.

 

Maybe we agree that, instead of blindly ranting about 'selfish' freeware devs, the focus should be on how a community can help on the case. As we saw, the guys like momtchil didn't hesitate to at least try. That's how it's done!