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Nathan3219

If It Isn't an Airliner - Why No Full Tutorial?

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It disappoints me to see great planes that aren't considered your typical "airliner" to lack a complete full tutorial.

 

For me, full flight PDF tutorials are like having your own personal trainer, although not nearly as great. PDF tutorials that thouroughly teach you startup to shutdown are great, because you can quickly learn the aircraft's basics and get familiar with it and once familiar, you can read the manual to find out full systems and advanced procedures.

Below I'll give a list of two amazing aircraft that were never given the full PDF tutorial treatment, which is a very sad case... since such complex aircraft need a tutorial to teach you how to to properly fly the thing, and make your experiences come to life.

 

Below I'll give two lists of amazing aircraft for FSX that lack a full PDF tutorial, which is disappointing, since to many simmers who are only experienced with airliners, these planes are very different approaches to aviation.

 

1. MilViz F-15E Strike Eagle.

 

I bought this plane recently, and found it to be absolutely amazing... sounds were great, it felt like what I'd expect a fighter to feel like, and it even had air to air and air to ground weaponry on it, which was awesome! It was also an extremely complex airplane, I found it to seem even more complex with systems than the SimCheck A300B4, or the NGX.

 

The problem was, I found myself using the "Quick start" in the plane, and just flying around shooting at stuff, unsure of how to properly fly the bird, and get it going from a cold and dark procedure. I also wanted to learn the systems, but I had no idea how I could learn this plane with only a manual. A fighter plane was a whole new approach for me, because a lot of the systems I'd never even heard of before... I was so used to them traditional Boeing heavies!

 

I did my work, and looked around for a tutorial. I found some on MilViz's channel, which were cool, because they taught me to use the Air-to-Air and Air-to-Ground weapons, and a few other couple minute videos showing off some of the basics. There was also a short tutorial on Youtube which showed you how to start up the plane. Unfortunately, I could not find any full tutorial from A to B using all proper procedures for the MilViz F-15E, which was a disappointment... because now it just sits in my hanger.

 

2. SibWings Antonov 2.

 

I read a thread about how people were raving about the Antonov 2, and it was only 16 Euros, so I went for the buy... great bargain after all! I did a little flight in it, but as people mentioned, my engine caught on fire. I started reading the manual, and found a complex checklist, which would be great if I could comfortably learn where all the switches were in a tutorial first.

 

Again, the problem was, I found myself not having any way to learn how to fly this plane, because there is no tutorial to teach me how to fly it. I'm only supplyed with a manual and expected to know an Antonov 2. I've never had any experience in FSX with a classic prop like this. Plus, the Russian writing on the guages doesn't make it any better.

 

I googled "Sibwings An2 tutorial" and the results were a bunch of threads on multiple different flight sim forums about how this plane being released was so exciting. Again, I could not find anything about a tutorial from startup to shutdown for this unfamiliar bird.

 

 

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Send me your purchase info and I will reimburse you for the MV F-15E.  That you cannot read the manual (like everyone else, including the real world pilots, does) tells me that you do not deserve to own our product...

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Milviz Inc.: We are ironic so you don't have to, lol!

 

I own FSX Embraers and Airbusses and other planes, but their manuals just tell me how to configure and interface with them, plus, maybe, they contain a description of a tutorial flight. Believe me, Nathan, those planes do not just sit in my hangar.

 

What I've come across a couple of times, though, were tutorials or translations of included documentation, made by members of our flightsim community.

 

Nathan, you've collected all the information needed for a comprehensive user-made tutorial, so ... Nathan, what do you think about it?!?

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Below I'll give a list of two amazing aircraft that were never given the full PDF tutorial treatment, which is a very sad case... since such complex aircraft need a tutorial to teach you how to to properly fly the thing, and make your experiences come to life.

 

I have a slew of airplanes (almost all of them hangared) that I don't have tutorials nor flying guides for.  Real pilots have the luxury of training classes/programs, checkrides and other pilots of the same aircraft to ask questions of.  In this sense, when I think of all of the sim pilots who struggle through the manuals and work to figure it all out...sometimes, well, it just amazes me and I'm very thankful for all they put out there to help us.  Someone like Kurt 'Yoda' comes along and makes a great tutorial on the Citation Mustang and the King Air...it helps a lot of us along and I don't think he knows how much he and others have helped me learn and enjoy flying some of the ones that I do keep flying. Their tutorials, and that includes all the guys who help us out on these forums, are the closest thing to a checkride that we will ever get and I would like to give a big THANK YOU to them.

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Milviz, on 21 Jun 2013 - 12:32 PM, said:

Send me your purchase info and I will reimburse you for the MV F-15E. That you cannot read the manual (like everyone else, including the real world pilots, does) tells me that you do not deserve to own our product...

He wasn't even trashing your product, he was praising it. He just thinks it lacks a proper tutorial.

 

And you gave a arrogant reply like this... Wow, nice public relations. :O

You need to pay money for the plane AND you need to deserve it appearantly. And negative comments are not allowed at Milviz it seems.

 

I mean, as a developer it wouldn't hurt to treat your customers with some respect. Why don't you guide him towards being a sattisfied customer by helping him? :smile:

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I'm sorry that you think of my response as arrogance. It's hardly that. 6 developers, 3 full time, 2 years of modeling, painting and coding. Two full redo's on the external AND VC paint. 3 video tutorials on how to start the plane, fight the plane against another plane and do some mudmoving, a full set of manuals, a quick start guide and he's asking for MORE????  All that and at less than 40$?

Plus I offered him his money back.

That's more like customer service that no else gives.

 

And I am not known for my...  diplomacy.

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I'm sorry that you think of my response as arrogance. It's hardly that. 6 developers, 3 full time, 2 years of modeling, painting and coding. Two full redo's on the external AND VC paint. 3 video tutorials on how to start the plane, fight the plane against another plane and do some mudmoving, a full set of manuals, a quick start guide and he's asking for MORE????

 

Plus I offered him his money back.

 

That's more like customer service that no else gives.

 

And I am not known for my...  diplomacy.

That is a nice gesture, but i was referring to the 'tone' of your reply, especially being the supplier.

 

I don't own the plane so i don't know if his statements are justified, but from what i understand he is in need of more documentation about some of the systems being modelled. MAybe he missed it, or maybe he should look on the internet for real documents of the plane, i don't know. But instead of offering him a refund, you could have giving him guidance or external references to answer his questions in a friendly manner. Because again, He was being more positive than negative on your product.

Just my 2 cents. I'm not a saint either, i can mouth off ppl too when i get annoyed, as i demonstrated earlier in another thread :P

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He wasn't even trashing your product, he was praising it. He just thinks it lacks a proper tutorial.

 

(...)

 

 

So, why did Nathan 'ground' it? Isn't that supposed to tell us anything?

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Send me your purchase info and I will reimburse you for the MV F-15E.  That you cannot read the manual (like everyone else, including the real world pilots, does) tells me that you do not deserve to own our product...

 

I'm so glad you wrote this! Now I know I will never ever own a Milviz product. Ever! You can build addons that are as cool as all that, but with that attitude, I wont ever trust your support.

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Send me your purchase info and I will reimburse you for the MV F-15E. That you cannot read the manual (like everyone else, including the real world pilots, does) tells me that you do not deserve to own our product...

+1

 

“You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can’t please all of the people all of the time”. -- and why should you need to !!

 

Not happy - so you get a full refund - Sounds like good resolution to me.

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Agreed. I'd be happy to get my money back if I was ######...

 

Anyway I think YT contains a lot of help for smaller acft. Tutorials take a lot of time to do properly.

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The product comes with the FULL F-15E manual edited by Ken Stallings who spent MONTHS working on it making sure EVERYTHING operated just so... 

 

So he has everything... and there are two other things I missed mentioning...

 

there is a 4th video showing how to use the UFC...

 

and this is the first product (and still the only one out of the box) that has working weapons.

 

Now, let me rephrase my first statement so that it's more... nice....

 

I'm very sorry you don't like our product.  Do feel free to contact me to arrange for a full refund!

 

Or you could try, maybe, reading the manual?

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Andreas Stangenes, on 21 Jun 2013 - 3:22 PM, said:

 

I'm so glad you wrote this! Now I know I will never ever own a Milviz product. Ever! You can build addons that are as cool as all that, but with that attitude, I wont ever trust your support.

If I have a hand in the development (which in this case i did) you would normally run into me first and I would be bending over backward (hell I would be backflipping from a cliff dive) to help you. People who have actually asked for support get it, pressed down, shaken together, and running over. However it is a bit hard to give support to those who dont ask. And for those at Milviz with a slightly shorter temper...Its a wee tad difficult for them to refraing from getting upset when someone doesnt ask for help and then gives a bad review of the product. Especially considering how much went into it.

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Send me your purchase info and I will reimburse you for the MV F-15E. That you cannot read the manual (like everyone else, including the real world pilots, does) tells me that you do not deserve to own our product...

Unbelievably harsh and petty responsive IMHO.

 

Lost a lot of respect for MilViz (from whom I own a lot of products), from such an unnecessarily hostile and defensive reply, to a simple piece of feedback.

 

There are two possible replies you could have chosen, to the OPs feedback:-

 

1. "At the pricepoint, we choose not to put resources into creating tutorials"

 

2. "Thanks for the feedback. We'll have a look at creating a tutorial"

 

....you chose "[how the heck dare you ask for a tutorial].... you don't deserve our product"

 

That last part "you don't deserve our product" is the most unnecessarily hostile phrase I've ever seen a developer throw at a paying customer, in 15 years of flight simming.......... publically or otherwise.

 

Whoever within the MilViz team wrote that reply, should perhaps stay away from public forum environments; at least from representing MilViz.

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Narutokun, on 21 Jun 2013 - 4:41 PM, said:

 

If I have a hand in the development (which in this case i did) you would normally run into me first and I would be bending over backward (hell I would be backflipping from a cliff dive) to help you. People who have actually asked for support get it, pressed down, shaken together, and running over. However it is a bit hard to give support to those who dont ask. And for those at Milviz with a slightly shorter temper...Its a wee tad difficult for them to refraing from getting upset when someone doesnt ask for help and then gives a bad review of the product.

Im glad to hear it, but the bit marked in red isn't true. He didnt give a bad review. He said it was an amazingly good product that offers something different on the market - and that was too advanced for him (that's why its sitting in the hangar). In our sim community that is actually a GREAT review. He wants some more hand holding. Then you slap dollars in his face and tell him to GTFO. Totally unacceptable!

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Send me your purchase info and I will reimburse you for the MV F-15E.  That you cannot read the manual (like everyone else, including the real world pilots, does) tells me that you do not deserve to own our product...

 

I have to say, you are not doing your business much good with responses like this, and your subsequent retort. At this point you should  quit while you're behind!!!

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Its a wee tad difficult for them to refraing from getting upset when someone doesnt ask for help and then gives a bad review of the product.

 

I agree with others.  It wasn't a bad review at all!  He's just asking for a bigger helping hand with a great airplane.  Ken's documentation/tutorials in the past have been pretty detailed.  Maybe he's just not finding what he needs?

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Alright.... after re-reading his post I can see where I went off the tracks a bit.

 

Nathan.  If you want your money back, you'll get it.

 

However, there is no way we can, cost effectively, do tutorials for each of any aircrafts systems.  It's just not possible.

 

And I apologize if I came across harshly.  I'm not, as I said, very diplomatic.

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Alright.... after re-reading his post I can see where I went off the tracks a bit.

 

Nathan.  If you want your money back, you'll get it.

 

However, there is no way we can, cost effectively, do tutorials for each of any aircrafts systems.  It's just not possible.

 

And I apologize if I came across harshly.  I'm not, as I said, very diplomatic.

 

You just need a good word filter...like the girl that completed finishing school and was asked what she learned?  "I learned to say 'amazing' instead of 'b___s___'."

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MilViz

 

Your original response was appalling, particularly as you apparently speak on behalf of a commercial organisation. I have no doubt that you fulfill a role within the organisation at which you excel, but with huge respect one of your colleagues who has greater diplomatic skills than you should be the "public voice".

 

Like any business you will survive and indeed grow by selling more and more of your products to people who choose to spend their hard-earned money with you. For that magical transaction to take place you must treat them with respect.

 

By the way, your aircraft are superb.

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Glad to see you are a man, Milviz, and apologize. Although it's a pretty weak apology concidering it's the most unheard of insult I've ever seen a developer throw at a customer.

I will not do business with you in the future.

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However, there is no way we can, cost effectively, do tutorials for each of any aircrafts systems.  It's just not possible.

 

I should add however that the video tutorials on the Milviz youtube channel do cover just about all the systems (navigation, startup, weapons usage to name a few) that are simulated on the F-15E.

 

Video tutorials are one thing. PDF tutorials are way more time consuming, especially for a military aircraft.

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I'm so glad you wrote this! Now I know I will never ever own a Milviz product. Ever! You can build addons that are as cool as all that, but with that attitude, I wont ever trust your support.

 

 

Exactly the opposite effect on my end: I just had a look at the Milviz product range.

 

This is the product description of one shop offering the Milviz products:

 

http://secure.simmarket.com/milviz-f-15e-strike-eagle-fsx-(de_6249).phtml

 

It names the "Highly detailed Pilots Operating Handbook" and offers two download links, one for the 544 pages (!) POH and one for the 12 pages Quick Start Guide.

 

What we have here is a clear case of not RTFM ...

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However, there is no way we can, cost effectively, do tutorials for each of any aircrafts systems.  It's just not possible.

I fear you are misunderstanding the OP; they're not ask for tutorials for each system, they're talking about one or two general tutorial flights, similar to what you get with the PMDG NGX or Simcheck A300 (which they specifically mention).

 

Evidently it's not impossible because other developers are already doing it at similar price points. Did you hear the outcry about lack of advanced tutorial for Majestic's Q400 when it first came out (which has now been rectified)?

 

A written tutorial is an invaluable resource because it will teach you many things the manuals don't, specifically flows and manufacturer SOP. Supplying a comprehensive systems manual is all well and good, and I do read them but they do not provide all the information you need to know to operate the aircraft properly and they are sometimes written in very technical and hard to understand language.

 

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Exactly the opposite effect on my end: I just had a look at the Milviz product range.

 

 

Nobody here (including the OP) has anything but praise for Milviz (the developing company). It's Milviz' (the person responding on behalf of the company) short temper and insult towards his customer that makes me quite sure I will have to make due without his products. He didnt even read the OP twice before he flung the nuclear missle of a post his way.

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