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777 with 1 or 3 aux tanks: Which airlines purchased it?

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Hi folks, 

 

which airlines purchased the 777-200LR with 1, which with 3 aux tanks? 

 

After having flown CYVR-ACA33-YSSY and back YSSY-ACA34-CYVR I haven't had the impression that it is needed at all. Ok winds were not that strong on both legs, but even the centre tanks was not really full. 

 

Thanx in advance! 

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Captain Randazzo wrote on the topic (thread: http://forum.avsim.net/topic/402556-15mar13-let-the-previews-begin/)

 

'You will notice that this particular LR is equipped with the AUX fuel tank, as evidenced by the switch layout of the fuel control panel in the lower center of the image.

 

We have provided a range of aircraft options to match those offered by Boeing, so you will be able to select whether your LR carries no aux fuel, one aux fuel tank, or three.  The entire fuel system is managed properly according to Boeing's specs, and even adjusts the operation of normal fuel flow and jettison to protect the airplane CG from exiting the CG envelope.  (More on this in a future update!)'

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Hi,

 

I believe the 777F does not have aux tanks.

 

Although in the options menu you can still choose aux tanks in the 777F.

 

Is this correct?

 

Thanks

 

Greg

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Excellent question.  I'm flying the Delta LR from Atlanta to Dubai, about 13 hours 40 minutes, and the aux tanks were never used at all.   Seem like this will be hard to obtain information, but perhaps a search on airliners.net may yield results if they show the overhead panel. 

 

It would be neat if someone could create a wiki page that details some of this hard to find inside data by airline for the 777, such as commonly used cost index, descent policy speed, takeoff flaps setting, and of course, if aux tanks are installed.   It would be a waste not to find out and share this data as PMDG put so much effort into building such an accurate simulation!

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I do not believe any airline has actually ordered the external tank option.

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I believe the 777F does not have aux tanks.

 

Yup, have read this, too. 

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Yup, have read this, too. 

 

Is this a fault in the FMC allowing it then?

 

Greg

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No airline has ordered the LR with any aux tanks. There is a tradeoff between taking off with excess fuel weight and scheduling an intermediate stop. Both burn fuel and landing obviously generates expenses, but at a certain point somewhere around 12-15 hours it becomes more economical to plan a stop because of the additional revenue payload which can be carried. Additionally, the aux tanks themselves must be counted in the gross weight, removing more revenue-earning payload. Obviously the passengers would rather fly nonstop, but even they are not willing to pay a premium, such as Singapore Airlines was charging on the Newark to Singapore route in an A340 that can only carry 100 people. Everyone pays business class prices. That is why the flight is being discontinued in a month.

 

Ben

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Is this a fault in the FMC allowing it then?

 

Is it a fault in the FMC for allowing auto cruise when real planes can't alter time?

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Is it a fault in the FMC for allowing auto cruise when real planes can't alter time?

 

 Ha... you know some people on this forum are going to answer in the affirmative... 

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Obviously the passengers would rather fly nonstop,

 

Not really. At these flight times, more people would consider a stop, especially in Y. Even in J and F, while it is better, it is still hell of a lot of time to be closed in an airplane.

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Is it a fault in the FMC for allowing auto cruise when real planes can't alter time?

 

Auto cruise is a good feature if you dont have the time to do long haul.

 

Im just saying that the 777F does not have aux tanks so why can this be selected.

 

It should only be available in the 777LR.

 

Greg

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Auto cruise is a good feature if you dont have the time to do long haul.

 

I wasn't questioning that...

 

 

 


Im just saying that the 777F does not have aux tanks so why can this be selected.

 

The real 777F doesn't have a one-point-twenty-one Gigawatt flux capacitor - why can auto cruise be selected?

 

 

 

While I'm just busting your chops, keep in mind that the FS ACTIONS menu itself isn't a real function of the FMS.  I understand part of your concern (it leads people to believe that it's an option on the F), but really, it isn't like someone miscoded a function of an actual system or anything.  Just like the Auto Cruise feature, or the Unlimited Fuel feature in the sim, if you don't want to use it, don't.

 

Still, I'll pass it along to the team.

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I would just like to ask... is the option really not available? Or is it just not outwardly advertised...

 

I mean - if I walked in to Boeing, and told them "Here is my unlimited credit card. Now, I want a 777 freighter, and put three aux tanks in it.", will they go "No can do" or will they go "Sure, let me get the price list"?

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I wasn't questioning that...

 

 

 

 

The real 777F doesn't have a one-point-twenty-one Gigawatt flux capacitor - why can auto cruise be selected?

 

 

 

While I'm just busting your chops, keep in mind that the FS ACTIONS menu itself isn't a real function of the FMS.  I understand part of your concern (it leads people to believe that it's an option on the F), but really, it isn't like someone miscoded a function of an actual system or anything.  Just like the Auto Cruise feature, or the Unlimited Fuel feature in the sim, if you don't want to use it, don't.

 

Still, I'll pass it along to the team.

 

I agree with all your points and if I had not read the manual I would never had known that the 777F did not have the option of aux tanks, and also for example ADF's.

 

I was just worried incase it was a problem with my PMDG 777 letting me pick the option.

 

Thanks

 

Greg

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I would just like to ask... is the option really not available? Or is it just not outwardly advertised...

 

I mean - if I walked in to Boeing, and told them "Here is my unlimited credit card. Now, I want a 777 freighter, and put three aux tanks in it.", will they go "No can do" or will they go "Sure, let me get the price list"?

I guess they would demand you pay up front because if you run your cargo airline like that you would soon be bankrupt! I presume in cargo ops carrying a lot more cargo is preferable to extended range. I also guess that there must be room for aux tanks in the freighter and if not I wonder why. 

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Having thought a little more I would think that the freighter is only certified to fly with normal tanks and the passenger LR probably had more airframes available for certification and could therefore the different tank combinations could be tested. 

Edit: The aux tanks go in the rear lower cargo hold so for extra range in the freighter you would permanently lose that cargo space. 

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Hi folks, 

 

which airlines purchased the 777-200LR with 1, which with 3 aux tanks? 

 

After having flown CYVR-ACA33-YSSY and back YSSY-ACA34-CYVR I haven't had the impression that it is needed at all. Ok winds were not that strong on both legs, but even the centre tanks was not really full. 

 

Thanx in advance! 

 

Yep - Would agree in that even for a route of that length, you probably would not need the auxiliary.

e.g., zfw 185 (so payload of 40 tons), fuel around 132 means a tow of around 317. so in theory i could take another 13 tons of fuel without needing the additional capacity provided by the auxiliary tanks. Forecast is for 9 tons remaining (forecast winds not too strong)

I think I'll leave this route though for another day  :smile:

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Hi folks, 

 

which airlines purchased the 777-200LR with 1, which with 3 aux tanks? 

 

After having flown CYVR-ACA33-YSSY and back YSSY-ACA34-CYVR I haven't had the impression that it is needed at all. Ok winds were not that strong on both legs, but even the centre tanks was not really full. 

 

Thanx in advance! 

QUANTAS is the only airline that played with the idea of the AUX option for a non-stop LHR-SYD had they bought the -LR, understanding winds would require a stop on SYD-LHR. Singapore might have also evaluated the idea for a SIN-NYC flight.

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I guess they would demand you pay up front because if you run your cargo airline like that you would soon be bankrupt! I presume in cargo ops carrying a lot more cargo is preferable to extended range. I also guess that there must be room for aux tanks in the freighter and if not I wonder why. 

 

I would have made a ridonkulous amount of money creating an actual functioning weather radar for FSX. And I mean Bill Gates Looks Poor Next To Me kind of money. I want the 777F to carry around my Skoda. I will ferry myself around in a 747 two flight levels up.

 

 

 


Having thought a little more I would think that the freighter is only certified to fly with normal tanks and the passenger LR probably had more airframes available for certification and could therefore the different tank combinations could be tested. 

 

That actually makes sense, sorta. I doubt number of frames available would factor into this, but I guess it could be "F" model could be not certified. Not until I whip my credit card that is.

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I know for fact that Air Canada's 77Ls do have the 3 aux tanks in the belly, both from pilots I've talked to (who claim that it was planning for the future, because the CYVR YSSY doesn't use them, and that is currently ACA's longest route), and if you check their website, they list the fuel capacity of their 77L as 202,287 L (which is some 70L shy of what the FCOMs say the 3 Aux fuel tanks bring the capacity up to). Compare that to the listed ~181,000L of fuel their 77Ws can hold, ACAs six 77Ls could be the only 6 with them! But they're indeed there, albeit in a hereto unused state.

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The 777 is technically offered as a BBJ too.  Presumably BBJ operators would order the 3 aux tanks.  If I had zillions of dollars, I would go to Boeing and ask them to turn it into a Combi BBJ... B)   Kind of like a giant PC-12 lol.

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QUANTAS

Queensland

And

Northern

Territory

Aerial

Services

 

which gives QANTAS (minus the U)... B)

 

....Oh if I had a dollar for everytime someone spelt it wrong. :Money Eyes: :Money Eyes:

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I would just like to ask... is the option really not available? Or is it just not outwardly advertised...

 

I mean - if I walked in to Boeing, and told them "Here is my unlimited credit card. Now, I want a 777 freighter, and put three aux tanks in it.", will they go "No can do" or will they go "Sure, let me get the price list"?

Since it's not a certified and tested config for the 77F, even if they sold it to you, I'm not sure the FAA would let it fly...

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Emirates had 1 AUX tanks upon delivery on their first 4  -200LR's. Tails EWA/B/C/D.

 

They were removed from the first 4 and none of their 10 -200LR's are currently flying around with them.

 

More space for cargo and either way the -200LR is a easy 18 hour aircraft. 

 

For Emirates:

 

777-200LR MTOW: 343,369kg 

777-200LRF MTOW:347,451kg

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