Wow is my generation really this dumb?

[Finnerz 2]

I also often find myself wondering about some of the people my age, so have been reading this topic with interest.  I have just finished state school in the UK and am going on to a good university, as are a lot of people in my year and I can see both the side for education being to blame for the situation under discussion, but also the people.

 

While my school isn't in a particularly rich area (in fact, more the opposite), it has a very strong, almost old fashioned attitude.  In our recent prize giving, the guest of honour was the first headmaster and he said how the school was set up in the time of grammar schools being abolished, and how while most schools were trying to cast out all the principles involved with that style of learing, they tried to make "grammar school opportunities for everyone".  And I think it has worked.  I realise a lot of people aren't that lucky and just looking at some of the schools in the neighbouring, richer area I can see what might be the stem of a lot of the problems we're seeing.

 

But on the other hand, there are these opportunities out there, even if (like me) you don't go to a public school.  I often wonder why people have these opportunities but don't seem to take them; why, like others have said, there seems to be a lack of motivation in some people my age.  And while I have nothing against people who are into celebrities and sports, why you are considered wrong or boring for not going with the crowd.

 

It's certainly a tough question!

 

Finlay

[Howell 7]

Wow we are discussing a major worldwide social issue and this is your contribution????  There is an old saying. "That its better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid then to open your mouth and remove all doubt"

 

  O.....yes, keep my mouth shut.....yes......and your title is so professional.  What you may THINK is relevant to your life NOW, may not be so with some one else.  If you want to make a point (I would suggest a collage course on Communication for you), I would not start the topic with a insult.

 

  6 billion people on this earth and you just put us all in the BUMB category . . . .nice! 

[Bjoern 1,157]

Seriously?

 

Didn't the rather evil genocidal leader of Germany in the early 40s take a similar view to that? ....... The answer is not uber-right wing human selection surely, it's more education and specifically the education of the benefits of holding inner values and 'doing the right thing'..... not because an old book tells you that a god will send you to hell if you don't ......... but because being good to people is good for them, and you.

Yeah, he did. At least for one part of this "racial purity" BS he tried to sell the population.

 

Having all people trying to be beacons of enlightenment is a noble, but as long as the dynamic of an, on average, ever "dumber"* society isn't changed, it's an ultimately futile goal.

 

*"Dumb" is subjective. "Adapted" would be the more appropriate.

 

 

Bjoern, your KSP playing seems to affect you.. somehow. ^_^

 

PS. Please attach your craft file.

There's no nukes in KSP.

 

 

P.S: Not recognizing a quote from a very famous movie. Shame on your generation! *Chuckle*

 

 

 

Note that I do not feel that people are less intelligent, they just don"t seem to get taught the basics of learning and thinking in some schools anymore.

 

Oh, they do. The problem is, however, that the teaching methods and teachers are evolving much more slowly than the pupils and the rest of the world. Same goes for jobs, btw.

[japascoe 98]

A wise man once said:

``The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers.''

 

 

 

 

 

 

This wise man was Socrates, and he lived about 2400 years ago. I guess the more things change....

[Tom Allensworth 1,532]

This was back in the days when teachers had the 'board' of education. Students didn't dare step out of line back then.

 

Miss Martha; my 11th grade history teacher. Known for throwing chalk board erasers at classmates sleeping (back in the day before computers and white boards and she could hit someone directly in the forehead in the back row) and for dressing down anyone that dared yawn at her, slouching, chewing gum, looking at her "wrong". The perfect authoritarian. I loved her and guess what, I did learn history!!!

[IUBrian 151]

An interesting conversation, mostly devoid of the petty insults that seem to fly back and forth too frequently on these forums.

 

I find the international perspectives fascinating. I don't know about other countries, but I think in the States we don't talk about our own history enough, at least in terms of perspective as to how we are unique; it's ok, I think, for us to take pride in our accomplishments as much as we do shame in our failures. The emphasis is more on the latter, and a presentation of world history as different cultures from a plain vanilla "we're all basically the same" perspective.

 

To my international friends, I'm not speaking of "we should teach American kids we're great, and the rest of you are crap." But there are things about our country that have allowed us to accomplish things that are unique to our identify, as is the case with other counties - there are things in most successful modern countries that have enabled that country to succeed that are unique to that country; there's no shame in learning that, and taking pride in it, and understanding why it makes your own nation unique. But our understanding of our own, as well as each other's countries, seems to be based more and more upon superficial cartoonish stereotypes as opposed to a true depth of understanding.

 

For example, having conversations with a German friend made me really think about the differences between our two countries. I think the US is unique in that our nation was founded on a basis of distrust of government, almost that it is a necessary evil, and that has manifested itself, in one example, in a far greater tolerance for hateful speech than other countries, an idea that has broad support here because we're highly distrustful of the government deciding what's ok. Of course we've deviated throughout our history, but that's a key feature. My German friend, however, would be far more willing to place trust in his government, and I believe his reasons for doing so have a lot to do with characteristics of German society, one that has been historically more respectful of order and authority, and he and most Germans would accept laws that almost every American would reject. (I know this sounds like a German stereotype, and to some degree it is, but it is more complex than the stereotype).

 

In no expert, and this is just an anecdote, but I think when Europeans ask "why does America do this?" and we ask "why do Europeans think that?" it's because we have such a superficial understanding of each other's cultures. (Generally speaking - a broad statement can only be so accurate).

 

On the one hand, one might think the internet breaks down those barriers, and I think it can, but only if you have a basic understanding I cultural history, otherwise the internet creates an illusion that we are more alike than we actually are.

 

 

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[Lawyer+Pilot 126]

People these days are generally dumb. It's a real shame so many of them vote.

 

This video makes the point pretty clearly. The good stuff starts at 2:00.

 

 

Simply classic.

[LeeL 272]

People these days are generally dumb. It's a real shame so many of them vote.

 

This video makes the point pretty clearly. The good stuff starts at 2:00.

 

 

Simply classic.

Wow that's pretty sad.

[Airbusman330 300]

Miss Martha; my 11th grade history teacher. Known for throwing chalk board erasers at classmates sleeping (back in the day before computers and white boards and she could hit someone directly in the forehead in the back row) and for dressing down anyone that dared yawn at her, slouching, chewing gum, looking at her "wrong". The perfect authoritarian. I loved her and guess what, I did learn history!!!

I had this math teacher that used to frequently call me to the chalk board even though he knew that I rarely had the answer and after a year of very awkward moments in front of the class (being painfully shy didn't help) I've grown to resent him and the subject itself. In high school math class I did just enough to pass since the trades and not a university acceptance letter was my goal.

[Howellerman 104]

 

 

While I thought it was very natural to have them below each article on the grounds that you only share and like stuff you have read yourself, he thought the best place was at the top of the page because he would press the button right away on the basis of "this looks cool" and would not bother to read the item first.
 
After this discussion I am not surprised about any dumb stuff anymore!

Oooohhhhh - this speaks volumes about the attention "span" of modern thinking. 

 

Some say that PowerPoint was the demise of critical thinking - the fancy graphics and simple statement dumbed down the content, certainly far lower than a White Paper. Now we have individuals who base merit simply on the fact it "appears" interesting", without actually learning about the subject. How far can something climb up the search engine ranks just because people think the concept is cool, without really understanding that it may in fact be opposite of what they think is cool?

 

I think this is endemic in modern civilization: people are not trained in "critical thinking": don't take anything at face value, do some research, search for the source (i.e., the dogma behind the information). There are an increasing number of studies that suggest Americans (in particular) are too ... stoopid ... for democracy, if only because they lack the ability to critically dissect what is important and why.

 

Sigh - it has been a long day discussing the future (server road maps), and I am not encouraged...   :(

[CoolP 283]

The perfect authoritarian. I loved her and guess what, I did learn history!!!

I doubt the blue part and would like to point out that, from your post, you did learn because the authority acted on you. Not because somebody intrinsically motivated you or showed how much value a good education can have.

 

And how would she have handled critical thinkers by the way? :mellow:

 

Well, I'm glad that most views in this thread eventually left the superficial 'people are dumb' side and went over to looking at how education takes place, how it changed and will proceed to do so. And we shouldn't trick ourselves into thinking that schools are the place for fixing society's errors. No, that's not their current streamlined role although I do agree that the lack of a stable basis will surely show up at schools first.

 

Raising my glass to John-Alan for that quote and context.

 

And, to Q_flyer (Dave). Man, you change your avatar a lot. :lol: But, seriously, I think I was equally disturbed by that expression from Bjoern and tried to play it off. So thanks for asking about the background.

[Jessica Bannister-Pearce 120]

I do find debates like this really funny. Partly because I'm as guilty as anyone for decrying the generation below as 'stupid, idiotic or dumb'. My partner works with kids on a daily basis and oh dear god, some of them are stupid. I mean Darwin level stupid.

 

With that said though, the idea that mya genration or indeed your genre action, whichever that is, is superior is a fallacy.

 

For example, it's not my or the generation below that's shut down the US government. Its not my or the generation below that allowed banks to lead us to the big meltdown a few years ago. And it wasn't my or the generation below who took some of us into a war without evidence.

 

Now I know these are controversial points, but how does it look to the next generation if the current generation still does stupid things?

 

I'll sign off with this thought. Every generation lambasts the next generation as dumb. The 20's were the jazz babies, the 50's rock and roll teens, the 60's flyover power, the 70's punks and so on. Each generation has looked bad to the previous. It's the nature of things.

 

Best wishes,

Jess B

[sascha 314]

Oh, they do. The problem is, however, that the teaching methods and teachers are evolving much more slowly than the pupils and the rest of the world. Same goes for jobs, btw.

I work within a scientific community (gravitational research) that is very demanding and the cutting edge of the evolution of both technology and software development (for data analysis).

 

And while there are still brilliant and well-educated young people about, there are less of them and general standards are declining. Also with post-docs ie after university.

 

Lile I said it is not intelligence it is learning and thinking skills.

 

In research you have to work things out for yourself, you can't look things up.

 

You have to look at a lot of disparate facts and try to build a coherent whole.

 

You have to look at a piece of complicated technology and try to determine why it is not performing as it should, or how to improve it's performance.

 

Maybe this is because schools and universities require more specialisation from pupils and students these days.

 

I know that in Germany education has become a real rat-race at least, with lots of additional stuff crammed into curricula and people having less time to do it ...

 

Regards,

Sascha

[CoolP 283]

I'll sign off with this thought. Every generation lambasts the next generation as dumb.

Which also happens to be the most convenient explanation available. Cui bono?

 

I think I agree with your statements and would like to point out more generally that a person is setting up his mind with starting at that 'people are just dumb' point. Therefore leaving out data on how many people receive education, at which level and how e.g. things like illiteracy are on a decline. Most of all, not looking at the surrounding, his very own society and the factors acting on young people which, for example, includes their parents.

 

The 'solutions' then paint a very biased picture, mostly involving a kind of extra authority (as if you could force people into being intelligent, or at least behaving like that) or even a plea for a separate society, normals and subnormals or something. The voting question surely is the most prominent example given. The subs can vote, dare them!

 

Now that would summarise the extremes of course but I think it serves as some food for thought.

 

I like what Sascha points out when it comes to learning and thinking skills. It's of no use to a society if you have individuals collecting all kind of grades or behaving in a drilled pattern if they then lack of critical thinking skills and the sheer drive to make a difference, or at least handle data and circumstances outside of the learned scope.

 

By this, promoting education as something to 'just fill in' (most likely in the least amount of time possible) may only solve the issue of cheap and 'educated' labour. Whereas a society must have an interest in a much broader and deeper setup, hopefully still having enough time to take care of their children instead of producing the most impressive CV in their attempt to receive a job which pays for their living. Causal chains.

[IUBrian 151]

For example, it's not my or the generation below that's shut down the US government. Its not my or the generation below that allowed banks to lead us to the big meltdown a few years ago. And it wasn't my or the generation below who took some of us into a war without evidence.

 

Now I know these are controversial points, but how does it look to the next generation if the current generation still does stupid things?

Well, without debating the merit of your points, if the general premise is that the previous generation "does stupid things," and is generally inept, who do you think is responsible for educating your generation? I ask rhetorically, but actually I don't believe those of us lamenting the quality of education are arguing that the current generation can't learn; we're questioning how it is taught. So at least as far as that point is concerned, there isn't an inconsistency between our positions.

 

As for fallacies, it's equally fallacious to imply that any criticism of the next generation is invalid because previous generations were criticized, just as it's fallacious to suggest that all prior criticisms of previous generations were invalid.

 

 

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