Wing Creations RJAA: Insane Price

[Q_flyer 766]

You should stop wearing your feelings on your shoulder too.

 

And you should learn not to randomly pick on a guy over pointless semantics.......  It's you that needs to get over it, not Eric.

I think Dave "Dexter" Romford secretly ordered 20 copies of it to bump up the numbers :biggrin:  

 

They discounted it for me Chris! :lol:

[Cai Zicheng 171]

This is capitalism, something is not "automatically" affordable for everyone (actually that's a life statement) -- it's not communism or socialism, it's a global free market. The argument to be pirate (aka be a thief) because you can't afford something is hardly legitimate ... especially when we're talking entertainment software?? If the Chinese want to (and this is by no means a given) be able to afford XYZ, then they'll need to implement serious change in their political system and embrace the good AND the bad that goes along with Capitalism and democracy.

 

I can't afford a Lear Jet at $15M, I'm not going to steal one just because I think $15M is too much -- I don't have a clue on how much in materials and workmanship went into making a Lear Jet so I couldn't possibly define a "value" for it.

 

If one can't afford to or doesn't want to pay that price, then don't buy it and don't steal it. I really never understood the countless debates people seem have about "cost of product XYZ" without understanding how many hours and how much money was invested in making the product ... it boggles my mind to keep reading threads like this. Seriously? Can anyone who complained about the price provide a detailed account of exactly how many hours of development time and money went into this product? If not, then how do you know what the "value" of the product should be?

 

One's personal financial state doesn't dictate a vendors product pricing ... people also don't have any say in what is deemed a "fair" profit for those that worked hard to produce the product.

 

I'm sorry if I sound harsh, but I see this everyday ... a generation of people (in most cases younger, but not always) that seem to think they are "entitled" to something they can't afford. Life owes you nothing, life is what you make out of it ... if your road in life is one that doesn't provide the things you need/want, then you need to select a different road or be happy with your choice. Some life choice don't pay well, some life choices may take 10-20 years before they start paying well -- that's life and it's your choice.

 

Sorry for the rant, but this piracy justification because someone can't "afford XYZ" is one of the few things in life that really bothers me (as you can see it clearly sets me off) ... maybe because I grew up in a very poor family going back to WWII England (my folks had German bombs landing on their houses, lining up to get the basics like food and water). We have always worked VERY hard to get the things we want/need in life -- and I do mean VERY hard (the road has never been easy). I've worked 34 years to be able to afford some of the luxury items I have ... at no point did I ever think I could decide the cost of those luxury items.

 

Rob

I don't care what you say actually. However, I'd discuss a bit about your reasoning skills.

 

Government and political change does not necessarily lead to market change. China, though having a single party government, has a market essentially the same as western countries. Markets worldwide have unavoidable limits set by the government. For instance, drugs, endangered animals, and destructive weapons. In this sense, the Chinese market is as free as the western markets. The western market is thus as un-free as the Chinese market. You presumably considered Chinese market not as part of the global market, which is an invalid assumption. Being a WTO member since 1997, China has contributed its part in global economy. American's best selling iPhones are made in Henan Province of China. Intel has a factory in Sichuan Province of China that produces the highly acclaimed i7 processors. Even the US military purchase China made supplies. It is clear that China, as a part of the free global market, has interacted so well with the rest part of it that people don't even distinguish the difference of social system when using the products manufactured in China.

 

Sure an average Chinese as this moment cannot afford a USD 50 addon. However you mistakenly attributed that to governmental and social systematic problem, which is again an invalid assumption. Whether an average person can afford something has only to do with his net income. Net income itself has two dominant figures, the gross income and the tax rate. Please refer to the Chinese personal income tax webpage at http://www.worldwide-tax.com/china/china_tax.asp , which suggests a very similar tax rate to that of the US. Also please not that every Chinese has CNY 3000 (approx. USD 500) of tax exemption every month. While it has been proved that tax does not make US and China different, we should look at the other possible explanation, the gross income. China, 2012, approx $6091 per year. The US, 2012, approx $39336. That makes a significant difference! However, by doing a currency conversion, $6091 is CNY 38000. Numerically, an average Chinese and an average American earn almost the same if money is not spent internationally. But FS addon publishers, mainly US, Europe and Australia, price their product base on USD, EUR and AUD. (For purchasing power of the two currencies, I would invite you to do a search about general commodities sale price in both countries to gain an understanding about prices in China. You will find that they numerically coincident each other.) Another aspect that you were possibly not aware of is that China has 4 times as many people as the US, which the land coverage of both countries are similar. That being said, China has similar amount of natural resources as the US, which a 4 times large population are consuming it.

 

So, is there a way that the Chinese can afford FS addons? The answer is resounding yes. By making a reduced version of addon with reduced price, people will afford it easier. Just like the methodology behind Apple's iPhone 5C. So will there be a way that the Chinese can afford a "Full version" addon? Yes, however, requires everyone to work harder, which is exactly what the Chinese government is calling on it's people to do.

 

Ok, like I said, I'm not at all interested in what you said. I'm just doing a critical writing practice.

[flightwatch 68]

And you should learn not to randomly pick on a guy over pointless semantics.......  It's you that needs to get over it, not Eric.

 

I wasn't "randomly picking on a guy over pointless semantics."  I was simply pointing out a logical truth.  Anyhoo, I am over it and have been for almost 2 days.  It was you that was late to the party  :rolleyes: 

[Guest]

Ok, like I said, I'm not at all interested in what you said. I'm just doing a critical writing practice

You're not interested in what I said but you want to respond to me with a "critical writing practice"? That doesn't make much sense to me ... that's not a terribly effective method of communication.

Government and political change does not necessarily lead to market change

Yes it does if implement correctly. China doesn't participate it copyright laws (for the most part) to the extent of the 90% of the rest of the world. This is very much a political statement around a communistic philosophy. China also doesn't allow freedom of information which is one reason why Google gave up on China, again a political statement.

Being a WTO member since 1997, China has contributed its part in global economy.

The global economy has been around considerably longer than 1997 ... China is in the unfortunate position of "catch-up".

Sure an average Chinese as this moment cannot afford a USD 50 addon

How do you know that? And why is this relevant? My context was in response to the suggestion that piracy is acceptable because someone can't afford the cost of the product. That logic/justification will NOT work in any free market for the simple reason that if no one paid for the product, there would never be a product or future products ... your logic is literally chasing your tail in full circle.

 

I can't tell you what the average Chinese earns ... not really part of anything I was debating.

 

It's a Global market and hence Global affordability. But again this isn't related to my comments that the end consumer doesn't "set" the price of a product based on what the feel they want to pay. For better or worse the Global Market doesn't work like that ... the cost to produce will reflect on the actual cost relative to the source AND the intended ROI (aka hopeful profit).

So, is there a way that the Chinese can afford FS addons? The answer is resounding yes. By making a reduced version of addon with reduced price, people will afford it easier.

But the Chinese and/or China have no say in deciding the price ... that's the entire point of a "Free" Global market. And to further cap this point, profit margins are again decided by the folks who make the product ... it's not something that is negotiable regardless of one's country of origin.

Yes, however, requires everyone to work harder, which is exactly what the Chinese government is calling on it's people to do

It's not just about working harder, that's assumed, it's about value of work ... and the "value" of work is determine by many factors including, once again, the Global Market. It's not just about quantity of hard work, but it's about quality, efficiency, design, durability, innovation, real solutions, and many other factors that substantiate "value". Each element (design, quality, efficiency, assembly, etc.) will have a real value associated with it. Just as with 3rd party add-ons for FSX, they are not all the same, some have much more design/quality to them (i.e. PMDG 777) and hence will deem a higher value.

 

But again, my point was about theft (piracy - something for nothing) as a justification. This "justification" will always be a dead end road if it continues to grow as a "global" problem (China is #17 in the list of pirated software with a rate that is about 4X higher than the US which is the lowest #107 (see IDC data: http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_sof_pir_rat-crime-software-piracy-rate).

 

I sympathize with countries that are unable to afford some of the Global market prices, but the solution to that are philosophical changes and time (China has a lot of catching up to do). And I'm by no means suggesting that a "Global Market" is even a good thing for the planet or the human race, nor am I suggesting Capitalism is "the only solution" (it has it's philosophical problems also). But what I am suggesting is that if everyone was a thief/pirate, nothing would ever get produced -- given the ever increasing piracy rates we're eventually going to hit a wall, and the impact isn't going to be good for anyone.

 

Rob

[Cai Zicheng 171]

You're not interested in what I said but you want to respond to me with a "critical writing practice"? That doesn't make much sense to me ... that's not a terribly effective method of communication.

Yes it does if implement correctly. China doesn't participate it copyright laws (for the most part) to the extent of the 90% of the rest of the world. This is very much a political statement around a communistic philosophy. China also doesn't allow freedom of information which is one reason why Google gave up on China, again a political statement.

The global economy has been around considerably longer than 1997 ... China is in the unfortunate position of "catch-up".

How do you know that? And why is this relevant? My context was in response to the suggestion that piracy is acceptable because someone can't afford the cost of the product. That logic/justification will NOT work in any free market for the simple reason that if no one paid for the product, there would never be a product or future products ... your logic is literally chasing your tail in full circle.

 

I can't tell you what the average Chinese earns ... not really part of anything I was debating.

 

It's a Global market and hence Global affordability. But again this isn't related to my comments that the end consumer doesn't "set" the price of a product based on what the feel they want to pay. For better or worse the Global Market doesn't work like that ... the cost to produce will reflect on the actual cost relative to the source AND the intended ROI (aka hopeful profit).

But the Chinese and/or China have no say in deciding the price ... that's the entire point of a "Free" Global market. And to further cap this point, profit margins are again at the decide by the folks who make the product ... it's not something that is negotiable regardless of one's country of origin.

It's not just about working harder, that's assumed, it's about value of work ... and the "value" of work is determine by many factors including, once again, the Global Market. It's not just about quantity of hard work, but it's about quality, efficiency, design, durability, innovation, real solutions, and many other factors that substantiate "value". Each element (design, quality, efficiency, assembly, etc.) will have a real value associated with it. Just as with 3rd party add-ons for FSX, they are not all the same, some have much more design/quality to them (i.e. PMDG 777) and hence will deem a higher value.

 

But again, my point was about theft (piracy - something for nothing) as a justification. This "justification" will always be a dead end road if it continues to grow as a "global" problem (China is #17 in the list of pirated software with a rate that is about 4X higher than the US which is the lowest #107 (see IDC data: http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_sof_pir_rat-crime-software-piracy-rate).

 

I sympathize with countries that are unable to afford some of the Global market prices, but the solution to that are philosophical changes and time (China has a lot of catching up to do). And I'm by no means suggesting that a "Global Market" is even a good thing for the planet or the human race, nor am I suggesting Capitalism is "the only solution" (it has it's philosophical problems also). But what I am suggesting is that if everyone was a thief/pirate, nothing would ever get produced -- given the ever increasing piracy rates we're eventually going to hit a wall, and the impact isn't going to be good for anyone.

 

Rob

Well, throughout my entire reasoning I had zero words/ sentences talking about piracy. Instead, my point was on a governmental/ social system role in national and global economy. Clearly, under no circumstance will piracy be tolerated or justifiable. Unlike what you said as China does not have copyright law, a full set of legal document concerning intellectual properties can be found at http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fbaike.baidu.com%2Fview%2F6465655.htm%3FfromId%3D161285%26redirected%3Dseachword&act=url

Is the US absolutely clear of piracy? Not yet obviously. However the US police or whatever agency is constantly patrolling the network. Even if the figure about Chinese piracy is effective, it can only suggest that the Chinese authorities did a bad job to enforce the law cited above. Having fundamental difference from not having a copyright law, China has a clear stance anti-piracy. Let's hope China does better, shall we?

[Brenchen 51]

I am making opinions/observations based on my experience (not myself, but many around me).  Everyone has their own experiences that make them think otherwise; particularly that they haven't been exposed to the society/environment; their view will differ completely.

 

Robain; I don't blame you for getting agitated from seeing what I wrote based on your experience and what you went through, nor does it mean what you said was incorrect.  It is indeed correct morally.  However, my statement/opinion/observation can not be overridden.  I am not exactly young or old, but I get in trouble from my folks if I let them know I spent money on purchasing software that I can pirate.  Of course, I am old enough to know what's right from wrong, thus I don't do it, that doesn't mean they will think about piracy as being a bad thing that is a conviction by law regardless of the amount of social media that's going around.  And since I know them too well, I don't even bother to explain the consequences and the principles anymore.

 

They are not the only ones thinking that way; many Chinese I know think like that.  Though it disgusts me (as I've been raised in a Western community), but it is not something one can neglect.  Expensive cost + can't afford = pirate (steeling) is a very common equation.  I, as a good customer/consumer can only do what I can to try to minimise while aiming to eliminate piracy within my own community.

 

Finally, not everyone gets the chance to choose their life path.  Some doesn't have the resources to even know what's out there, or what it takes to get there.  We are lucky to have a shelter over our heads, food in front of us, leisure at our finger tips and a chance to "choose" our future; thus we share what we can to ones that are less fortunate.

 

Sorry to deviate off the purpose of the topic.  I am not trying to start a war here, nor am I annoyed about anything.  I just wanted to voice my opinions based on seeing and living in both worlds with vastly different cultures and educations, so anyone can get an awareness of what's out there and how some "pirates" think.

[Matsu787 104]

guys......take it outside, this has nothing to do with flightsim anymore. if the scenery is too much price then don't freaking buy it.

 

 

 

Kin M.

(Klax)

[ArjenVdv 190]

I find airport sceneries to be way overpriced in general. That's why I barely buy any. We have over 25000 airports to fly to and on average one costs 20 euros, that's crazy! I'm sure much time and effort goes into it, but the same applies for other downloadable content for other games. I.e. racing games, if you want an extra track that was fully laser scanned (meaning it's super accurate) it will barely cost you 5 euros... 

[zmak 331]

The trick is to wait for the sales. I picked up 20 Orbx dvd's recently at $14 each

Pacific island sims do 40% off sales as well 

 

I dont think FSdream team do sales unfortunatly

[Cai Zicheng 171]

The trick is to wait for the sales. I picked up 20 Orbx dvd's recently at $14 each

Pacific island sims do 40% off sales as well 

 

I dont think FSdream team do sales unfortunatly

They do. Black Friday each year.

[Guest]

 

 

I don't blame you for getting agitated

 

Being in the business of producing software and seeing several good friends who are also in the business being forced to shutdown/abandon what they've worked incredibly hard for because of piracy/theft does agitate me, especially when I see such rampant justification for piracy.  

 

BTW, I'm of UK origin but was born in Pakistan (Karachi), I have lived in following countries: Pakistan, Bahrain, Saudi Arabia, England, Iraq, Canada (Quebec), United States, Ghana (Africa) and I have traveled to many more.  I have lived with poverty and I saw theft in those countries ... but it was theft of food, clothes, the basic needs for survival.  It was NOT theft of entertainment software or luxury items.  It makes NO difference to me of one's country of origin, theft/piracy of entertainment software will never have a justification.

 

And I'd be happy to post pictures of both my UK and US passports with stamps from those countries I visited for any doubters.

 

 

 

if the scenery is too much price then don't freaking buy it.

 

Back on topic, agree, don't buy it and don't steal it - live without it.

 

Rob.

[ajpongress 467]

I laugh reading some of these responses.

The average Chinese citizen can't afford it so the price should be lower?

Maybe they should just market it to 3rd world countries and have everyone pay in wampum?

 

If consumers think the price is too high, they won't buy.

Nothing you can do if someone doesn't have a sale price you don't like.

I would love to buy my own plane but I'm not comparing the sale price to the average income of someone else like it's the standard for setting the price.

 

Price is the price. Buy or don't buy.

Not having RJAA scenery isn't going to degrade the quality of your life.

Jeez.

[zmak 331]

They do. Black Friday each year.

Now thats good to know!

[Hirdy2013 104]

So has anyone actually picked this up?  Keen to hear what it's like.

[B777ER 2,489]

I have and like it. They just released a lite Texture package update. Reduces the memory foot print and loading times. To me it is the best fsx RJAA out there.

 

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