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bpcw001

Anti-ice auto operation

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Hi,

 

Since there is no real icing in FSX, am I right that wing/engine anti ice will never be triggered automatically as it is supposed in the real airplane when the sensors detect ice?

 

Thanks

Dave

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Iv'e had the anti-ice system enable automatically when flying through a overcast layer. It was about 4°C so pretty nice!

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Since there is no real icing in FSX

 

If we're talking about the same thing, then that can be a common misunderstanding. Icing effects are aircraft dependent, both for aircraft systems and visually. There are several aircraft which model icing effects with systems, performance and visually.

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I have yet to see it in action but I suppose when winter gets here I will see it in action more, one thing to remember, auto mode foes not work on the ground, only in flight, if there's icing conditions on the ground you have to set the switches to ON

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Wing anti ice doesn't work on the ground, no matter what the switch position is. It will work very breifly while it does a self test.

 

Engine anti ice will work on the ground.

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There is icing simulated in FSX, except FSX does it in a way that isn't real- it simply adds weight to the aircraft slowly (at different rates based upon severity), rather than physically simulating ice on the control surfaces. 

 

Pitot and engine intake icing are simulated as well, but they are very basic. 

 

Light, Moderate, and severe levels are programmed into the cloud layers, or simply programmed. It is up to the third-party weather simulation program to determine what is severe, and what is light.

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Wing anti ice doesn't work on the ground, no matter what the switch position is. It will work very breifly while it does a self test.

 

Engine anti ice will work on the ground.

 Funny, i could have sworn what i read was that the AUTO mode doesnt work on the ground, i know wing anti ice doesnt work on the ground for most boeing planes, i'll have another look at the manual.

 

 

 

 

it simply adds weight to the aircraft slowly (at different rates based upon severity)

 

I didnt even know FSX went as far as this, i will have to start paying more attention and applying Vref+ICE speeds where applicable.

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777 wing anti ice works just like every other Boeing or Airbus, not available on the ground. On the Airbus you are not allowed to select it until flaps are up. On the 777 no limitations exist, the aircraft only has to be airborn.

 

Regarding ice as weight within FSX & FS9, I wouldn't be too worried about it, it takes a very long time for the weight to increase and even then the amount of weight is tiny.

 

I tested the icing years ago in FS9, I put the PMDG 744F in a holding pattern in freezing rain, It took well over an hour before the aircraft stalled.

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 Funny, i could have sworn what i read was that the AUTO mode doesnt work on the ground, i know wing anti ice doesnt work on the ground for most boeing planes, i'll have another look at the manual.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I didnt even know FSX went as far as this, i will have to start paying more attention and applying Vref+ICE speeds where applicable.

 

 

 

It builds very slowly, not enough to really affect a jet or even a turboprop the king air's size. Interestingly enough, there is an ice gauge (freeware)  that was created in order to speed up this process and enhance the effect. 

 

FSCaptain is another utility that accomplishes the same thing, as well as some other "hazards" (ground friction and brake effectiveness reduced on contaminated runways). 

 

SimPhysicsX tries to go into detail as well, and will even allow you to deice and observe holdover times, as we do in the real world.

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SimPhysicsX tries to go into detail as well, and will even allow you to deice and observe holdover times, as we do in the real world.

 

That addon sounds interesting. Do you have it, what do you think, and does it work well with PMDG aircraft?

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I would recommend SimPhysics for every simmer looking for a more realistic experience. Yes it works with PMDG. It is on my list of wouldn't fly without addons.

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Is it really so that SimPhysicsX is working and affecting PMDG birds ?

I found comments that it is not working well with 737NGX, did not find anything about 777.

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The PMDG JS41 has icing simulated. I start picking it up in the mid-levels when IMC and the temperature is below 8C. If I don't start the de-icing the aircraft will slowly start to slow.

 

Billy Bluestar

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Is it really so that SimPhysicsX is working and affecting PMDG birds ?

I found comments that it is not working well with 737NGX, did not find anything about 777.

http://forum.simflight.com/topic/73806-sim-physics-and-anti-ice/

 

For me the only real important thing with SimPhysicsX is brake performance based on runway condition, wet/dry/contaminated etc.

 

Here is some info on the latest build.

 

http://forum.simflight.com/topic/74303-sim-physics-x-version-11-rolling-out-now/

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OK. I'll have a close look what happens when flying through icing conditions. Now, having fall and winter coming, this will get interesting.

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I just took of from ENSB.

It was snowing and -5C. 

Snowing stopt above 5000ft but below that Anti Ice did not go on. I manually set it to on.

 

I used FS Global Real Weather, but it's doing the same with AS2012

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777 wing anti ice works just like every other Boeing or Airbus, not available on the ground. On the Airbus you are not allowed to select it until flaps are up. On the 777 no limitations exist, the aircraft only has to be airborn.

Doesn't the 737 have the ability to operate wing anti ice on the ground? I seem to remember a solenoid holding the switch on until takeoff.

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It was snowing and -5C. Snowing stopt above 5000ft but below that Anti Ice did not go on. I manually set it to on.

 

The plane has to detect ice accumulation.  If the snow does not melt and then refreeze on the plane, it's not going to kick the AI on.

 

One thing that simmers have difficulty with is the formula WATER + COLD = ICE.  Snow is technically already frozen/crystalline.  It would have to unfreeze, and then refreeze.  In order to do that, you'd have to warm it up.  A cold aircraft is not going to do that.

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I just took of from ENSB.

It was snowing and -5C.

Snowing stopt above 5000ft but below that Anti Ice did not go on. I manually set it to on.

 

I used FS Global Real Weather, but it's doing the same with AS2012

The manual states auto anti ice has to detect ice to work, not simply that icing conditions occur. Maybe you didn't get any build up?

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Doesn't the 737 have the ability to operate wing anti ice on the ground? I seem to remember a solenoid holding the switch on until takeoff.

As far as I am aware the 737 is like every other Boeing, you should have airflow over the slats while wing anti ice is in operation, you will get over heat issues and whole other bunch of issues if it was able to operate on the ground, not to mention it is less effective with the slats or LE devices out

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Also, look up "TAT, Total Air Temperature" as it plays a role in large jets. Even with a TAT within the icing range +10ºC to -40ºC SAT, lots of other factors play in (air density, pressure, type of precip).

 

Icing isn't that much of a factor in large heavy jets (when handled correctly, of course)

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As far as I am aware the 737 is like every other Boeing, you should have airflow over the slats while wing anti ice is in operation, you will get over heat issues and whole other bunch of issues if it was able to operate on the ground, not to mention it is less effective with the slats or LE devices out

I checked the 737 FCOM; wing anti ice is available in the ground.

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According to what FCOM, PMDG's? Take a look at a real FCOM from an airline and you will notice that multiple aircraft of the same type will vary in a multitude of ways.

 

I did a little a research and many NG's have it inhibited (except for a self test) some will allow it to be engaged with an auto shut off in the case of overheat detected 125c.

 

Anyway as mentioned it is SOP with companies not to use it on the ground for the reasons I mentioned previously.

 

Its strange that they allow it to be available on some NG's it serves no purpose on the ground except to cook the slats.

 

EDIT - Apologies for dragging on! I like to learn new things and was curious as to why Boeing gave this option for the 737 only, it seems it was a reaction to the 737 crash in Washington. I won't post the whole thing but here's a small part

 

 

 

Federal Aviation Administration, after studying recommendations growing out of the Boeing 737 crash in Washington in January, has declined to issue an order at this time requiring improvements in the anti-icing system or changes in takeoff procedures.

The agency told the National Transportation Safety Board on Tuesday that the Boeing Company, the plane's manufacturer, was conducting tests of the takeoff hazards raised by snow or ice on wings....

... Last week Boeing sent a notice to airlines that it had voluntarily taken steps so that all new 737's would have an improved system to prevent icing on the wings while a plane was waiting for takeoff. The company also asked its customers if they wished to incorporate the improvement on 737's already in use ...

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