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CrewF16

Lets hear it from those hands on Pilots!

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I just finished a flight in my NGX into KCMH (Port Columbus Ohio) in a blowing snow storm at night, IFR from 17,000 down to 100 feet and they took me the long way around. I always hand fly most of the way up and always from TD. I was fighting 80 and 90 kt. cross tailwinds a lot of the way down and of course ATC delayed my decent. If someone showed it on you tube as a RW pilot trying to hold an altitude at times they would think he was drunk. The chute down the ILS was not real pretty either but the landing was good. I have had a lot of good flights this was a challenge, Love it.

 

Lets hear from you guys. Most videos (I do not know how to do them) I see are AP to final then hand land. How many of you like to hand fly your machines????

 

Thanks,

Ron

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Depends on how I feel. Mostly I feel on late evenings (one could say I simulate end-of-day pilot fatigue, hehe) so often I let it stabilise on ILS and takeover at that point. But I do enjoy being hands on when I am well rested. Especially when I fly in the Alps!

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During my practice  for a check ride with my VA .....I hand flown the plane about 20 times performing a visual approach to JFK RWY13L, where turns were so steep, speed has to be very precise and altitude has to be maintained to the foot.....then touch down area is very short, touchdown speed is within a tight limit....It took me few flights to learn that.....specially with AT/ON then flaring ..........The best thing to me about the PMDG T7 is not how easy to handle but how it is behaving compared with other planes ......which feels so right and so great....The only way to feel the plane is to hand flying it :)

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I always hand-fly it during the climp maybe up to 10.000' - then I hit CMD.

Regarding the approach - sometimes I'll intercept the LOC and G/S and disconnect as soon as I have visual of the runway, sometimes I hand-fly VOR approaches, which is rarely the case but most of the time I use the ILS to get aligned and configured for landing and take over as soon as I can or as weather allows. 

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That is my point Bogdan, flying the decent, intercepting the ILS, and stabilizing the approach is the hard part. Give it a shot. It can be very rewarding.

 

Thanks,

Ron

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I have to say that I have my plane on Autopilot most of the time.

I can fly it by hand and I know that. I do not have to proof it to myself each time.

I rather stick to the SOP which says Autopilot due to passenger comfort.

 

Sure, if weather permits and if I feel like I want to handfly the aircraft I do it... but I rather fly my C172 by hand than my 777.
The reason is not that I do not feel comfortable flying the 777, but rather that there are so many different things to concentrate on in the 777 that I prefer the AP to do the job of the PF that I most often do the PM job in the 777.

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Now I use FS2Crew, I can hand fly more with VATSIM. I hand fly the first turns of the SID and hand fly when visual with the runway on landing. Sometimes I fly the ILS, using the bean bars, as reference. I try and use the AP when established on a radial on the SID. I always enjoy using the AP. Why not take advantage of the systems, if work load is high? I feel it is easier the check stuff with the AP on. Maybe because FSX is quite restrictive from a vision point of view. Hand flying that high, (10000) doesn't really do it for me, Sometimes you just want to see how the plane flys by itself. As long as I know I'm the boss. Transision Alt is a lot higher in the US, so Alt10000 is just a small hight for you guys. I'd be hand flying at FL100 in The UK or Europe.

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My attempt at flying the entire flight from Las Vegas to Los Angeles on the last stream I did 11 days ago. Could have done better if I was looking at the flight the whole time, but I also jumped between computers looking at chat and answering and questions people had.

 

http://www.twitch.tv/pw4056/b/483855620

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I like to fly the SIDs and STARs all by hand. Keeps things fun and your skills sharp in my opinion. I know that some companies and pilots fly this way too. Pilots gotta keep busy somehow and actually fly the plane once in a while. 

 

I found a video the other day of a KLM flight and the FO disconnects AP at around 5000ft in IMC and flies it till touchdown. If you skip ahead to the 16 min mark it should be around there.

 

 

Cheers, 

Duco

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Awesome video. I think he flew to 10,000 hands on. IMO if we could keep Bob in the back more instead of pulling him out at 500' at takeoff and 1,000' on landing safety stats would go up.

 

Thanks,

 

Ron

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In the sim i had done the hand thing just before and after the TD alot of times . in RW now that im trying to move up from the (UPS)757s i had to face a few flights were i had take over just after the TD all the way down to the tarmac ......

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What are you moving up to and how did those 757 flights from TD go?    (Don't forget to sign your post)

 

Thanks,

Ron

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I have to say that I have my plane on Autopilot most of the time.

I can fly it by hand and I know that. I do not have to proof it to myself each time.

I rather stick to the SOP which says Autopilot due to passenger comfort.

 

Sure, if weather permits and if I feel like I want to handfly the aircraft I do it... but I rather fly my C172 by hand than my 777.

The reason is not that I do not feel comfortable flying the 777, but rather that there are so many different things to concentrate on in the 777 that I prefer the AP to do the job of the PF that I most often do the PM job in the 777.

 

 

"Sure, if weather permits and if I feel like I want to handfly the aircraft I do it... but I rather fly my C172 by hand than my 777."

 

Bang on! my sentiments exactly. Its far far more rewarding flying the duke twin v2 when on instruments especially if its a bit stormy.

 

I dont get much reward from flying the T777 in its true approach set up, with auto throttle ON. 

I do get a buzz hand flying the PMDG 737 with auto throttle off.

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The results of the Asiana T7 crash investigation were released. There was a student Captain at the controls who was reserved about flying the approach. The crew was relying on the AP & AT It was found that the AT was not on and the Aircraft was too slow on the approach. Even if the AT was on the instructor should have had his hands on those throttles. (Or made sure the student did.) This is exactly what I am talking about here. Thank God there was not 300 passengers on board! 

 

 

Thanks,

Ron

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The results of the Asiana T7 crash investigation were released. There was a student Captain at the controls who was reserved about flying the approach. The crew was relying on the AP & AT It was found that the AT was not on and the Aircraft was too slow on the approach. Even if the AT was on the instructor should have had his hands on those throttles. (Or made sure the student did.) This is exactly what I am talking about here. Thank God there was not 300 passengers on board! 

 

 

Thanks,

Ron

 

AP is good if pilots use it in the right way, SOP and so on.  The trouble begins when pilots mix different disciplines up

You still have to watch what the aircraft is doing even if AP is on.

 

If you are in thick fog IMC conditions you have to fly a CAT 3 down to minimums. This is done with both APs.  Assuming the airport has this equipment. If not you would have to do a non precision approach using VORs. 

 

Ron are you saying that you like to monitor the instruments, but not necessarily  use the AP? Is this done with no visual cues from outside?   I  see where you are going from and so on, with situational awareness, providing you have your instruments?

 

There are couple of good Air Crash Investigations.  Which look at AP use, and pilots freezing at the controls etc. You probably seen these, but always good to watch again.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iq0ER7qou1c

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In the sim i had done the hand thing just before and after the TD alot of times . in RW now that im trying to move up from the (UPS)757s i had to face a few flights were i had take over just after the TD all the way down to the tarmac ......

 

I agree and see that your SOPs call for AP on certain approaches, but when given a visual approach or even in light IMC conditions ,is it up to pilot discretion to fly with or without AP? 

 

BTW as a young pilot myself, very jealous, what are you planning to move up to?. I just got hired at a company working ground then to the flight line within a year. Metro III here i come!

 

All the best,

Duco

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I'll use the tools I have while flying on any ATC network being I'm the only pilot in the plane. So no, I will not hand fly it from TOD ever on VATSIM. I do hand fly the approach and normally up to about 10,000 feet on departure.

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AP is good if pilots use it in the right way, SOP and so on.  The trouble begins when pilots mix different disciplines up

You still have to watch what the aircraft is doing even if AP is on.

 

If you are in thick fog IMC conditions you have to fly a CAT 3 down to minimums. This is done with both APs.  Assuming the airport has this equipment. If not you would have to do a non precision approach using VORs. 

 

Ron are you saying that you like to monitor the instruments, but not necessarily  use the AP? Is this done with no visual cues from outside?   I  see where you are going from and so on, with situational awareness, providing you have your instruments?

 

There are couple of good Air Crash Investigations.  Which look at AP use, and pilots freezing at the controls etc. You probably seen these, but always good to watch again.

 

 

 

Julian: I think you are misunderstanding my point. I am not implying that the AP should not be used. It is a necessary and valuable tool in todays world. All I am saying is that I think too many pilots do not do enough hands on flying to be valuable is a crisis situation. Ask a 40 year old to do a simple math problem with fractions. I guarantee there will be issues do to the fact that he or she uses a computer all of the time.

 

Thanks,

Ron

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AP is good if pilots use it in the right way, SOP and so on.  The trouble begins when pilots mix different disciplines up

You still have to watch what the aircraft is doing even if AP is on.

 

If you are in thick fog IMC conditions you have to fly a CAT 3 down to minimums. This is done with both APs.  Assuming the airport has this equipment. If not you would have to do a non precision approach using VORs. 

 

Ron are you saying that you like to monitor the instruments, but not necessarily  use the AP? Is this done with no visual cues from outside?   I  see where you are going from and so on, with situational awareness, providing you have your instruments?

 

There are couple of good Air Crash Investigations.  Which look at AP use, and pilots freezing at the controls etc. You probably seen these, but always good to watch again.

 

 

 

Julian: I think you are misunderstanding my point. I am not implying that the AP should not be used. It is a necessary and valuable tool in todays world. All I am saying is that I think too many pilots do not do enough hands on flying to be valuable is a crisis situation. Ask a 40 year old to do a simple math problem with fractions. I guarantee there will be issues do to the fact that he or she uses a computer all of the time.

 

Thanks,

Ron

 

Sure I understand,  that is what the PPL,VFR flight is for. Basic flying skills to fly rather than pushing knobs.  Sometimes  I do feel the need to get some flying in, so I do circuits, in a Piper. The joy being, that you get to experience as many take offs and landings as possible in a short space of time.

 

My only concern was that if you hand fly all the time in a high fidelity add-on like the 777, (I haven't even got it yet)... you would be wasting a good add on hand flying.  I am not implying that you meant this, just how I interpreted it. So My bad.   I do hand fly the NGX 737, but only at the most critical stage of flight, and always do this when ever possible. It is a bit boring doing auto lands all the time.

 

With Air France. If the pitot heat tube, froze like it did in that video, and I lost by airspeed, maybe I would be forced to hand fly. At FL350.  Easier said than done. No moon, just black and water. Although maybe he did have the FD on, pointing up, so why he didn't dip the nose we will never know. A bit of confusion over the alert sounding like a over speed warning , when it was a stall warning.

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I think it has to do with why you are in FSX: are you trying to learn piloting skills or play a game. There is no right or wrong here, only an understanding of your desired outcome.

 

If you are playing a game, then certainly using all the electronic "goodies" is great fun, and gives you the chance to move outside the airplane, check out the scenery and do some fun, even crazy, things.

 

If you are trying to learn piloting skills, it's a different matter. Before turning on all the electronics, it is crucial to learn how to fly an airplane: hands on, stick and rudder, basic understanding of how the machine works and what the instruments are telling you. As was said above, even when on autopilot, it is your responsibility as Pilot in Command to keep the airplane operation safe.

 

The suggestion to start with the Cessna 172 trainer is right on target in either case. You will learn more and become much more facile with the equipment if you use the building block approach: start small, adding skills and tools incrementally. Whether you are trying to become a pilot or a gamer you will do better and achieve your goal more quickly.

 

Happy Flying / Gaming!

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Well if you are looking to brush up your hand flying skill then FSX isn't going to do much ;) Hire a Cessna for an hour.

 

These sims don't fly like the real thing, especially with a plastic yoke in your hand. best to look at these sims as systems trainers, how to become a master in the art of button pushing :)

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Well if you are looking to brush up your hand flying skill then FSX isn't going to do much ;) Hire a Cessna for an hour.

 

These sims don't fly like the real thing, especially with a plastic yoke in your hand. best to look at these sims as systems trainers, how to become a master in the art of button pushing :)

 

I agree, although FS is very useful for practice with scanning/interpreting flight instruments.

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Well if you are looking to brush up your hand flying skill then FSX isn't going to do much ;) Hire a Cessna for an hour.

 

These sims don't fly like the real thing, especially with a plastic yoke in your hand. best to look at these sims as systems trainers, how to become a master in the art of button pushing :)

 

 

That probably says it all.  FSX is  a restrictive environment. Of the few flying lessons I have had it is nothing like FSX. 

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I agree, although FS is very useful for practice with scanning/interpreting flight instruments.

Yes, very good if you are being taught the correct way to scan. It can also be detrimental for those just starting out on a PPL with thousands of hours of FSX time, too much focus on the instruments and not enough outside the window or through feel.

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It can also be detrimental for those just starting out on a PPL with thousands of hours of FSX time, too much focus on the instruments and not enough outside the window or through feel.

 

That's for sure.  My instructor used to flick me on the shoulder all the time.

 

*flick* "Eyes out!"

*pause*

*flick* "Eyes out!"

 

 

 

 

...*flick* "Eyes out!  Your gauges are the horizon and your [rear]."

 

Learning that seat of the pants and visual picture has saved aforementioned [rear] a few times; most notably when my gauge lighting failed on a night flight back into JYO and my flashlight wasn't quickly accessible.

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