Well I must say congrats to everyone in this thread ... I think this has to be a record for the longest running and most civilized thread on AVSIM without getting a "Monitored" or "Locked" status.

 

 

1.  No cockpit only free'd up about 90MB VAS for me (not going to help much).

 

2.  The difference in future limits of XP10 and P3DV2 is that we can keep tossing hardware at XP10 to solve max performance issues, can't do that with P3DV2 and a 32bit address space ... and most importantly the level of quality of 3rd party content is going to be restricted for P3DV2 (PMDG and FSGRW will really force those sliders to move left even more).

 

3.  I'm not sure where the talk about game vs. sim came from and who this product is intended for (did LM really talk about this?) - iRacing is a simulation and it's 64bit, 3D Shooters have also been used for training real military personnel and those are 64bit.

 

4.  LM made their product available for sale in a public site so one can only assume it was intended for anyone or else why make it a public product?  A paying customer is a paying customer and it's up to them on how to use the product they purchased, it's not LM's decision and I gotta believe LM understand that and would NOT try to suggest customer use it a "specific" way?

 

I got my answer, no 64bit any time soon (beyond 2 years out) ... this is probably great news for Laminar Research and it'll give them more time to try to catch up.  For me, it's back to business as usual with P3DV2 and the possibility of improved frame rates and stability in the near future.  I tend to agree that stability should be the highest priority for LM right now, if some slight improvement in memory managements comes with that, then great.

 

We have two major platforms with two developments happening, so this is good news even if both don't meet everyone's expectations, they may someday get closer.

 

Rob

Now you're just talking in circles.  :wacko:

 

And you're actually comparing P3D2 to a flight sim that you don't even use!

 

What circles are you talking about?

 

And this is a standard for any application, be it a game or a simulator. If it can take good advantage of all hardware, it can be maxed out, if it has the system it needs. Even though I don't use it, to my understanding X-Plane 10 takes good advantage of multiple cores and is 64-bit. Am I wrong?

 

 

X-Plane 10 takes good advantage of multiple cores and is 64-bit.

 

What's missing in both products right now is multi-GPU utilization.  P3DV2 have a v2.1 release that is supposed to have multi-GPU utilization and I've heard LR are trying to do the same.

What's missing in both products right now is multi-GPU utilization.  P3DV2 have a v2.1 release that is supposed to have multi-GPU utilization and I've heard LR are trying to do the same.

 

Multi-GPU utilisation in Prepar3D 2.1 will just encourage Crossfire/SLI users to turn up the effects and get more OOMs. I'm sure that many will disagree with me, but I think that the core performance and memory management are of higher priority right now, because that's when you'll be able to use your multiple GPUs without bogging down the simulator.

What circles are you talking about?

 

And this is a standard for any application, be it a game or a simulator. If it can take good advantage of all hardware, it can be maxed out, if it has the system it needs. Even though I don't use it, to my understanding X-Plane 10 takes good advantage of multiple cores and is 64-bit. Am I wrong?

 

You said that LM hasn't said anything about memory management, but when I posted a quote from Beau at LM that they were first "focusing on getting the 32 bit version optimized," you wrote that "Getting the 32-bit version optimised means more than just memory management.: and then went on to state what he meant, when you cannot possibly know that.

If "getting the 32 bit version optimized" actually means "more than just memory management," than it obviously includes memory management, which was my whole point.

 

P3D also "takes good advantage of multiple cores" . . . perhaps even better than X-Plane 10 does.  X-Plane 10 does now includes two executables; one at 32-bit, and one at 64-bit, although I personally think it would have been better off getting the 32-bit version better optimized first.  The 64-bit version of X-Plane will enable you to push the sliders a bit higher, but it does not solve all of X-Plane's optimization problems.

I found this statement interesting:

First off, Prepar3D is a simulation platform, not a game. We have users that do nothing but cockpit training and others who don’t use an aircraft model at all.

 

The only thing of interest in the above is the absolute honesty of the statement.

• There are users who are only concerned with underwater simulations.
• There are users who are only concerned with battlefield simulations.
• There are users who are only concerned with mission simulations.
• There are users who are only concerned with SAR simulations.
• There are many, many more simulation scenarios possible, none of which involve "aircraft" in any way, shape or form!

The fact that Prepar3D even includes "flight simulation" is serendipitous. Lockheed-Martin could have much more easily left it out entirely, and simply allowed their customers to create their own unique solutions specific to their actual needs.

 

 

Multi-GPU utilisation in Prepar3D 2.1 will just encourage Crossfire/SLI users to turn up the effects and get more OOMs.

 

Agree, and when they are greeted with OOMs, they will turn the sliders back down again ... but it's not a complete loss, they will have higher frame rates.

You said that LM hasn't said anything about memory management, but when I posted a quote from Beau at LM that they were first "focusing on getting the 32 bit version optimized," you wrote that "Getting the 32-bit version optimised means more than just memory management.: and then went on to state what he meant, when you cannot possibly know that.

If "getting the 32 bit version optimized" actually means "more than just memory management," than it obviously includes memory management, which was my whole point.

 

P3D also "takes good advantage of multiple cores" . . . perhaps even better than X-Plane 10 does.  X-Plane 10 does now includes two executables; one at 32-bit, and one at 64-bit, although I personally think it would have been better off getting the 32-bit version better optimized first.  The 64-bit version of X-Plane will enable you to push the sliders a bit higher, but it does not solve all of X-Plane's optimization problems.

 

When I said "more than just memory management", I meant that there are other things they can do to optimise the 32-bit version, and "optimising" doesn't necessarily mean "optimising the memory management". I probably should have made myself more clear with that.

 

I can't agree that Prepar3D 2.0 takes good advantage of multiple cores. Autogen might be (that's what they're stating), but the AI, physics and systems still run on Core1. They've hinted towards better multi-threading in the future (in that thread mgh posted above), but nothing concrete yet.

4. LM made their product available for sale in a public site so one can only assume it was intended for anyone or else why make it a public product? A paying customer is a paying customer and it's up to them on how to use the product they purchased, it's not LM's decision and I gotta believe LM understand that and would NOT try to suggest customer use it a "specific" way?

 

But that doesn't mean that it's equally appropriate and the best solution for all customers. 

 

 

The only thing of interest in the above is the absolute honesty of the statement.....

 

And the fact that there are far wider interests to be considered in Prepar3D's development than those of us in these forums.

I do sympathize with those who are hitting the OOMs because I can imagine having the hardware to actually turn all the eye candy on and have the sim run well, just to be stymied by a VAS issue. As stated by LM on their forums, them pushing the engine in new ways (to do things like pop-free autogen) is what is contributing to the VAS issues. I'm willing to give them time to optimize and to find better ways to implement these tasks - hopefully allowing us bolt on as many addons as we want to bring the performance on our "supercomputers" back down to a crawl!

 

There are also still quite a few bug fixes pending that patch up memory leaks and prevent loading multiple texture sets in at once...

Agree, and when they are greeted with OOMs, they will turn the sliders back down again ... but it's not a complete loss, they will have higher frame rates.

 

Some will, but most will just complain more about the OOMs, especially if they just installed a 2nd GPU in SLI, with the idea that doing so would magically put an end to their OOM errors.

 

The problem is that you can be getting great frame rates with P3D right now (v.2.0), and still run into OOMs.  And too many users are still in the FXS mindset, where high FPS mean that you can push those sliders a bit higher.

From a software engineer's perspective, an OOM is a bug, it's an exception that is not "By design".  P3DV2 in a "virgin" state can be made to OOM.  LM can of course say we are aware our product can OOM with high display settings ... in which case, it's "by design" and not considered a bug.  Like I've said before, I would think it implausible that LM never ran into an OOM while coding/testing ... so one can only assume they were well aware of the OOM issue.

 

Be warned: what other 3D environmental simulation companies have done in the past to avoid OOM is simply restrict textures and graphics settings -- LM may elect to do the same.

 

 

Some will, but most will just complain more about the OOMs, especially if they just installed a 2nd GPU in SLI

 

Actually I'd suggest they will get really angry as for some the cost of additional hardware for entertainment purposes is a difficult decision ... for me it's a no-brainer decision, that 2nd Titan GPU will arrive as soon as V2.1 arrives, only difference is that I will just use it to improve frame rates from my locked 22 fps to a locked 30 fps (in all situations). 

 

 

 

The problem is that you can be getting great frame rates with P3D right now (v.2.0), and still run into OOMs.

 

Agree.

 

 

 

But that doesn't mean that it's equally appropriate and the best solution for all customers.

 

Ok, not sure the connection to what I wrote?

Oh boy... just had an OOM with autogen at Dense...?!?! I don't know what I like more right now: P3D v2 or FSUIPC's autosave... :blink:

 

Anyway, what some of us (including me) tend to forget, I think, is that almost all OOMs we get are 'false OOM's', meaning we get them while VAS is somewhere around 2.5 - 3.5. This clearly IS a problem that LM will (have to) solve and when they have done that, I do believe most of our OOM problems will be gone and things will be more similar to FSX. I mean, how often does my VAS get close to 4 GB...? Hardly ever! So I shouldn't be getting OOMs at all! P3D v2 itself should be fine and I should be able to use various addons without problems but as it is now something is causing problems and that something will (have to) be solved. Simple as that. It's not that P3D v2 will have OOM problems as long as its 32 bit: 64 bit would be nice but P3D v2 should be able to run just as well as FSX in 23 bit and that is only a matter of time.

 

 

hopefully allowing us bolt on as many addons as we want to bring the performance on our "supercomputers" back down to a crawl!

 

Bare in mind today's "supercomputers" are tomorrow's (2-3 years) mid to low end computers ... so it's always good to produce software that scales with improved hardware regardless of end user intent.  Improved future hardware in a 32bit path just means higher frame rates at fixed visual settings vs. improved future hardware in a 64bit path can bring both better visuals and improved frame rates and most important ... some really AMAZING quality from 3rd party content providers.

 

Regardless how one uses P3DV2, there is no situation where a 32bit environment is going to provide as much accuracy as a 64bit environment.  The best analogy I can come up with is think of this as you're being asked to summarize the world by writing that summary in a book with 4 blank pages (8.5 x 11 inches) vs. a book with 17,000,000,000 blank pages (8.5 x 11 inches) ... which book do you think will be the most accurate and present the most detailed?

 

The 4 page book will say:

Earth Population = 6.6 Billion

 

The 17,000,000,000 page book will say:

Earth Population = China 1.3B, India = 1.1B, US = 304M, Indonesia = 228M, Brazil=192M, Pakistan=166M, Bangladesh=160M, Nigeria=151M, Russia=142M, etc. etc. etc. and then proceed to break that up into specific races and genders and then onto annual income and then ... (anyway, I think point made)

 

Addressable memory

32bit = 4GB

64bit = 16EB (exabyte or about 17,179,869,184 GB)

 

Hopefully I got my conversions right.  

 

As for me, I've moved into the world of Flight Planning (I did it before, but at a basic level) ... it's a new world of serious for me and doesn't take one once of VAS.

 

The compromise I'm working on now is the following process:

 

1.  Flight planning (a new world of FMC that I pretty much rarely used)

2.  Crank up the graphics display settings for taxi to take-off -- just enough so I can get airborne (usually have about 3-7 mins before OOM with higher settings)

3.  Save flight just after take-off

4.  Turn graphics settings down

5.  Exit P3DV2

6.  Load flight (with now lower graphics settings)

7.  enroute

8.  About 3-7 minutes out of destination save flight, turn up grahics settings

9.  Exit P3DV

10.  Load flight

11.  Land 

 

Can be tricky at times, but this is my current process for A to B planned flights.  FSUIPC autosave feature definitely a big help here.  Is this how I want to fly, not really, but it's a compromise I've worked out and will live with until something better comes along.

 

Rob.

Ok, not sure the connection to what I wrote?

Of course you can use it how you choose. It doesn't mean it's particularly suited to that purpose though.