Please dear Lord, not again the 250 under 10000, not again .... :t0152:

The speed limit is there for a number of reasons, which may include bird strike (the faster you fly the more damage you could take), also slower planes fly below 10,000 so there's that, also from an atc stand point (which I am) the faster you fly the wider your turns during when you are being vectored. However I don't know about the US but perhaps there may be some exception for the heavies, particularly the 744 where the minimum clean speed may be well above 250kts when very heavy. I'm sure it would be impractical to expect that aircraft to fly with its flaps or slats out until climbing out of 10. Other than that a rule is a rule and just like every other rule, people do break them.

I see. Because what we reference to is a company document which sort summarizes the important rules we need to know when flying to a country. This doc is approved by the regulator, so if the book says we can fly above 250kts with approval from the controller on departure in the US, to my understanding It is a good to go. And most foreign carriers operating out of the US is doing the same thing everyday as far as I know.

 

Let's not get bold down on this too much I guess. I am just trying to give a scope as to what most crew will do in real life departing from the US regarding to the management of the speed. On arrival the rule causes us no problem at all, because a lot of time we slow to 250 below 10000ft for various reason on arrival anyways like terrain issue, Star that has a lots of tight turns etc etc.

 

Like I said before this is never a problem in Europe or Asia, unless the SID required a tight turn on departure which limits the max airspeed the airplane can fly. And most of the time this is due to terrain clearance on the departure routing.

From my experience of flying to US, the hard limit of 250/10000 can never be waived on arrival because of what had been mentioned here before. However on departure, high speed can be requested and 90% of the time approved in climb with departure control to fly above 250kts. I always tell delivery for what we need to give them a heads up when I read back the clearance.

 

In LA or ORD ( I don't remember ) ATC will file complain against the airline if the airplane flies above 250kts on departure without a clearance. That's why we always ask before we wind the speed up after airborne, and usually it is approached, I have never had one occasion that we had to fly all the way to 10000ft to clean up.

 

But you think about it, on a heavy 773ER at MTOW out if JFK/ LAX the clean speed is often 265kts, keeping it below 250kts required keeping flap one down for a considerable amount of time. And waste a lot of fuel. 

 

Even if you hear it, it's not correct (this is similar to the "any traffic in the pattern, please advise" rubbish you hear occasionally).

 

Again, there is no provision for any controller - terminal, en route, or otherwise - to approve the request.  Along the lines of your point that the clean speed of a heavy aircraft may exceed 250, this is true, and this is why the 117d exemption exists.  The 7110.65 (Section 5-7-2 Note 1) goes further to note "Pilots are expected to comply with the other provisions of 14 CFR Section 91.117 without notification."

 

So, again, you might hear it in the real world, but that doesn't mean that it is required, or correct.

Pilot side: the pilot should not be requesting anything.  If anything, it would be a notification and nothing more.

Controller side: they cannot request that you ignore the allowances made to you by the regs, and they cannot approve breaking a reg.  Getting upset at you for not requesting goes against 91.117 (on multiple levels), and the 7110.65 Section 5-7-2 Note 1 (if you hear that the next time, all you need to do is mention the 7110 reference: 5-7-2 Note 1).

 

Again:

The controller cannot restrict a crew from abiding by 91.117 in any way.  That means that, if you are entitled to fly by a 91.117d exemption (or have 91.117a approval), the controller cannot approve or deny any related operation.  That being said, people may be asking and getting "approval," but it is not necessary, and it is against both the FARs and the 7110.65.

 

 

 

However I don't know about the US but perhaps there may be some exception for the heavies, particularly the 744 where the minimum clean speed may be well above 250kts when very heavy. I'm sure it would be impractical to expect that aircraft to fly with its flaps or slats out until climbing out of 10. Other than that a rule is a rule and just like every other rule, people do break them.

 

There is.  This is the 91.117d exemption I've referenced a bunch, here.

 

The specific language is:

"If the minimum safe airspeed for any particular operation is greater than the maximum speed prescribed in this section, the aircraft may be operated at that minimum speed."

 

Again, noting that the 7110.65 notifies controllers (in 5-7-2 Note 1) that:

Pilots are expected to comply with the other provisions of 14 CFR Section 91.117 without notification.

 

Since 91.117d is part of 91.117, no notification is (should be) expected, and none is required.

 

 

 

This doc is approved by the regulator, so if the book says we can fly above 250kts with approval from the controller on departure in the US, to my understanding It is a good to go.

 

This should've gotten a better look by the approving group at the FAA, and by the individual operator, but if the OpSpec says "ask for approval," that's what you should go with.  Unfortunately, OpSpecs are supposed to be built upon the regs, and not modify them (the process outlined by the FAA specifically states: "the FAA evaluation focuses on the form, content, and technical quality of the submitted proposal to determine if the information meets the following criteria: Is not contrary to any applicable 14 CFR").  Because of this oversight, whoever approved the OpSpec is only making things more difficult for people.  The base reg approves the operation by default.  As such, the OpSpec should simply say "reporting/requesting is not required if the speed listed on the CLB page is above 250 knots," or, to be more friendly "the pilot should report when checking in with the departure controller with '[Facility], [Callsign] is [Current Altitude] climbing to [initial Altitude].  Minimum clean is [Clean Speed].' "

 

Yes, the OpSpec that the FAA approves is the one that people should go with, but if an OpSpec were to break a more important reg (or controvert it), it would get sent back for review.  Unfortunately, the confusion in the sim realm stems partially from confusion in the real world realm.

Kyle is correct in saying that controllers in the USA can not waive the 250/10000 rule, however as mentioned in the thread in the USA one is allowed to exceed the 250 bellow 10 rule if there minimum clean speed is higher than 250! It doesn't mean you can open your speed window and start flying at 330 Knots we restrict our 777 to VREF30+80. On arrival Into USA ports then you must always comply with the 250/10000 rule.

 

Other places in the world that have speed control of 250/10000 one might simply say request high speed or due configuration require high speed and atc will waive it but might impose some sort of speed restriction on you such as 280kTS or 300kts

Thanks a lot for explaining Things in detail in the background. Thats something i probably never know. That's perfect example that what people do everyday may not be 100% correct. I will have a look next time I fly to ORD.

 

 

Kyle is correct in saying that controllers in the USA can not waive the 250/10000 rule, however as mentioned in the thread in the USA one is allowed to exceed the 250 bellow 10 rule if there minimum clean speed is higher than 250! It doesn't mean you can open your speed window and start flying at 330 Knots we restrict our 777 to VREF30+80. On arrival Into USA ports then you must always comply with the 250/10000 rule.

 

Bingo.

 

...and that latter part is precisely why the SPD TRANS has the 240/10000 set in it (the assumption being, at this point, there's no way you're going to be heavy enough to require the 117d exemption at this point).

 

 

Thanks a lot for explaining Things in detail in the background. Thats something i probably never know. That's perfect example that what people do everyday may not be 100% correct. I will have a look next time I fly to ORD.

 

Welcome.  Always go by what your OpSpec requires, but if you talk to a controller who questions you, definitely mention that 5-7-2 Note 1 reference.  They'll quickly change their opinion.

 

Sometimes we all have to remind ourselves that real world pilots and controllers aren't walking rule books.  There are a ton of regulations, and they can't be experts on those, along with all of the information for each of the aircraft they currently or have flown.  And if someone compromised their (either the pilot or the controller) learning the regs early on by saying "there is a speed restriction of 250 under 10, but you can request to get it removed," then they probably never read too far into 91.117 to correct that bad bit of information, having taken it at face value ages ago.

 

Ever have a teacher tell you something when you were a kid, and then you realized it was all wrong after you grew up?  It's not that uncommon.

Well Olli, you better start practicing your figure 8 circuits. Get it wrong, you will end up bring old Fanny Cradocks washing off the line

 

Looking at the NZQN charts, there really is a lot besides LNAV and VNAV. Glad I bought it before becoming aware of the procedures ...   :blink:  :lol:  B)

 

Kyle is correct in saying that controllers in the USA can not waive the 250/10000 rule, however as mentioned in the thread in the USA one is allowed to exceed the 250 bellow 10 rule if there minimum clean speed is higher than 250! It doesn't mean you can open your speed window and start flying at 330 Knots we restrict our 777 to VREF30+80. On arrival Into USA ports then you must always comply with the 250/10000 rule.

 

Other places in the world that have speed control of 250/10000 one might simply say request high speed or due configuration require high speed and atc will waive it but might impose some sort of speed restriction on you such as 280kTS or 300kts

 

That's how it's been implemented in RadarContact for ages: Heavies only, non-FAA-land only, on request only. Am still going to check another 'heavy' takeoff from an FAA airport, though.

So if I were flying a heavy 777-300ER I might report to departure controller "NY Departure, New Zealand 1 Heavy with you climbing through 1500, minimum clean speed 265kt" and then proceed to clean up the aircraft and accelerate to, but maintain, 265kt, no faster, until 10K. Or have I got this wrong? To me, it sounds like it fits the regs, A, Departure is not 'waiving' or 'approving' anything, and B, I am complying with the "minimum safe speed" rule. Kyle?

So if I were flying a heavy 777-300ER I might report to departure controller "NY Departure, New Zealand 1 Heavy with you climbing through 1500, minimum clean speed 265kt" and then proceed to clean up the aircraft and accelerate to, but maintain, 265kt, no faster, until 10K. Or have I got this wrong? To me, it sounds like it fits the regs, A, Departure is not 'waiving' or 'approving' anything, and B, I am complying with the "minimum safe speed" rule. Kyle?

When I was flying DC10s, we never mentioned the speed, we just checked in. On that note, if you are above 250kts you better be a heavy. All over the world i never requested or mentioned my speed above 250. By the flight manual, you acceled to minimum maneuver speed or 250kts which ever higher. It was my understanding that ATC knew your potential to be above 250kts based on type.

Right, so only mention speed if they ask about it, which they shouldn't if your a 777 on a 15 hour flight. But don't pull a fast one and dial in 330kt. I may have to try this on VATSIM and see what happens. (not the 330kt, but a heavy departure with min clean over 250)

"So if I were flying a heavy 777-300ER I might report to departure controller "NY Departure, New Zealand 1 Heavy with you climbing through 1500, minimum clean speed 265kt" and then proceed to clean up the aircraft and accelerate to, but maintain, 265kt, no faster, until 10K. Or have I got this wrong?"

 

I can't speak for all operators and all crews but at my airline this is exactly what we do! As others have said if your in a wide bodied aeroplane flying a long haul flight the controller should be able to put two together and figure out your going to be going faster than 250.

 

Other parts of the world you would request it by saying something such as request high speed or high speed bellow 10. Almost everywhere they will waive it particularly in an environment where most of the traffic is also a heavy! Sometimes however a controller may have a genuine reason not to grant high speed (slower preceding traffic, he's worried about your climb rate etc)

 

On arrival you would simply say to air traffic request high speed bellow 10 and they will grant it if they aren't too busy, often the star you are flying will have speed constraints lower than 250 somewhere so you might say request high speed bellow 10 and no speed control on the arrival! If they grant it you better remember to adjust your descent profile to account for your higher speed and not mess up and look like a fool!!!

I know in Australia, the 250kts below 10,000ft rule is usually vague enough that it is for all intents "kind of" allowed for heavy aircraft departing large airports like Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane etc. Of course, most large aircraft leaving these airports are full of fuel and headed on 10+ hour trips to destinations in Asia, America etc, none of this piddly 7 hour Atlantic crossing stuff that A319's can even manage (lol).

 

It is a common event for *Departure control* (not Clearance Delivery!) to even offer high speed below 10,000ft outright, without even being asked, to the point of "United 840, Identified, Climb Flight Level 280 (the highest altitude Sydney TCU can offer), cancel speed restrictions below 10,000ft".

 

It is NOT common to hear it on the descent, although back in June 2001, I was on a Boeing 717 jumpseat when they requested, and got, speed restrictions cancelled below 10,000ft on arrival, and were still pushing 310kts at 5000ft on downwind for runway 19 at YBBN. Speedbrake was out through the turn to base, and all the flaps and gear came out pretty quick on final.

 

This is "in practice" stuff though, not necessarily to-the-rule.

 

The FMC of a Boeing aircraft (all Boeing aircraft. 737, 777, 747... even 717) have the default 240/10000ft setting.

 

And just like any "Default setting" on any computer, including my Windows 7 PC, Digital Television Tuner, Modem, Samsung Galaxy Android phone, and indeed Boeing, Airbus, McDonald Douglas, Sukhoi SU100 Regional Jet and GNS530WAAS GPS, you can override the default settings and make the device do what you want it to do.

 

On VATSIM, if I get cleared to cancel speed restrictions below 10,000ft (in Australia, not in FAA land where they have their funny American rules) I will simply go to the VNAV climb page. Press the "Delete" key, and then line-select the Default Setting to make it go away.

 

If I'm busy in the cockpit I might sometimes select FLCH and dial in 280 knots indicated till I have the time to go to the FMC.

 

The default is built into the FMC restrictions by Boeing so that you don't have to specifically make modifications to the profile to not break the rules.

However you CAN delete the restriction so that you can make the concious choice to exceed the default rules if you want to.

 

In some locations, this is a very common event.

In other locations it is not a common event (but may still be possible).

 

Regardless, Boeing have decided that their FMC will be restricted until the pilot makes a concious choice and action to cancel that restriction.

 

Those actions are one of the following:

• Select FLCH and increase the MCP selected Airspeed.
• Go to VNAV CLM profile on the FMC, and delete the restriction with the delete key and line select.

As exceeding the speed restriction of 250kts below 10,000ft is not a thing that can be done without any ATC interaction in any locations I know of, you can consider this being the same as a Route Discontinuity on SID/STAR's with vectored segments.

 

If your STAR puts you, say, on a downwind leg with a waypoint called <VECTORS> (it's not really a waypoint) Then the FMC will fly to the Vectors point, then drop LNAV out.

 

Without ATC intervention, the intention is to continue to fly on the last given heading or track, till some intervention is done, such as selecting a Heading, or inserting a new direct-to position in the FMC and re-selecting LNAV.

 

It's not a good idea to let the default FMC action be "track direct to the next waypoint" because that may very well be directly overhead the airfield, at which point you are in conflict with other traffic and have put yourself into a position for a vertical straight-down 0nm approach.

 

 

And finally. PMDG made a simulation of the 777. They are trying to simulate something so that it works like the real one.

If the real one does something, the PMDG one should too. If you don't like the Boeing FMC defaults, then maybe you can get Boeing to change theirs, and when the update goes through, PMDG can update the simulated one to match.

 

Boeing, being a company, and not 'the government' probably can't be petitioned to make such changes unless there is some profit in doing so.

"Breaking FAA regulations" isn't particularly profitable in most cases... even though the world isn't America, and America does things different.

(hint: all countries do things different. Even New Zealand and Australia do things different. Canada and USA. Japan and South Korea... Singapore and Thailand. The UK and France. etc.)

So if I were flying a heavy 777-300ER I might report to departure controller "NY Departure, New Zealand 1 Heavy with you climbing through 1500, minimum clean speed 265kt" and then proceed to clean up the aircraft and accelerate to, but maintain, 265kt, no faster, until 10K. Or have I got this wrong? To me, it sounds like it fits the regs, A, Departure is not 'waiving' or 'approving' anything, and B, I am complying with the "minimum safe speed" rule. Kyle?

 

As Rick mentioned, I'd avoid mentioning the speed (despite my earlier example - that was just giving a more "friendly" approach by at least letting them know - again, the 7110.65 specifically states the pilot won't say anything about following any part of 91.117).

Right I got ya. So really the only time they should question you is if there is clearly no reason for excessive speed, such as a 737 or something. In fact, the list of airplanes that needs more than 250 on departure when heavy would be pretty small, I am guessing 747, the heavier 777s, A340-600 would about cover it right? I don't even think the A380 would need it. (with its big wing)