Kyle I understand the rule and I was pointing out that it is almost always requested and granted from clearance delivery or waived by departure control. In other parts of the world they are even less strict about speed. But that is besides the point. My point though is 240/10000 coded into the fmc makes no sense.

It is a default setting. It makes PERFECT sense given what all of the very experienced people in the thread have suggested.

Kyle I understand the rule and I was pointing out that it is almost always requested and granted from clearance delivery or waived by departure control. In other parts of the world they are even less strict about speed. But that is besides the point. My point though is 240/10000 coded into the fmc makes no sense.

What a bunch of balloni.

Never in 15 years has clearance delivery waived the restriction for me!

 

High speed below 10.000ft is not often requested anymore by airline crews because their airline rules and regulation are becoming more and more restrictive.

And I am not saying that is a bad thing!

Established on approach in 1000ft.....we did not have that in our R&R 15 years ago!

No high speed below 10.000ft.....same thing.

 

Even if you were to request free speed below 10.000ft you would not request this to clearance delivery!

 

Sometimes it is offered by departure radar....maybe 10% - 20% of the departures!

More often offered by Arrival radar....max 50% of arrivals.

 

Maybe you should contact Boeing, and tell them the way the FMC works is rediculous, lol.

I hear it all the time. As an example yesterday over clearance for http://flightaware.com/live/flight/DAL473

 

Your first reply was talking about how you are mostly in Europe... and now you are denying what happens in America. So which are you an expert on?

 

"Dont remember now if I have ever gotten that one in the USA or not."

 

"What a bunch of balloni.
Never in 15 years has clearance delivery waived the restriction for me!"

 

Such anger and hostility. I don't waste my time with people who cannot act like adults.

Never said I was a specialist

 

But experienced enough in aviation to know what I am talking about.

 

Actually....come to think of it....I guess I am a specialist on knowing when people are pretending to know it all where they really have no clue!

You are just projecting here. I gave you a real world example and all you do is call me a liar and say that I claimed to know it all? You post here like you are a pilot, it sounds like make believe.

AAL125, on 20 Jun 2014 - 3:13 PM, said:

You are just projecting here. I gave you a real world example and all you do is call me a liar and say that I claimed to know it all? You post here like you are a pilot, it sounds like make believe.

 

777simmer, on 20 Jun 2014 - 12:21 PM, said:

Actually....come to think of it....I guess I am a specialist on knowing when people are pretending to know it all where they really have no clue!

Perhaps you should both stop before Ryan locks and \ or deletes this thread. And please sign your posts AAL125.

 

 

Kyle I understand the rule and I was pointing out that it is almost always requested and granted from clearance delivery or waived by departure control. In other parts of the world they are even less strict about speed. But that is besides the point. My point though is 240/10000 coded into the fmc makes no sense.

 

If you understood the rule then you wouldn't follow it up with what you did.  Again, ATC cannot - ever- waive any FARs.  It's not at all under their powers to do so.  You only have two options: emergency situations (91.3 exemption), or a waiver from the Administrator.  End.

 

Clearance delivery (who wouldn't be handling speed at all, really, so it really isn't in his or her jurisdiction to handle that matter at all) cannot waive a speed, and I've never heard it in the United States.  Departure, likewise, cannot waive speed restrictions (despite actually being in a case where speed actually affects them.  If you have a recording of this specific transaction, or could provide the specific phraseology (what you heard is one thing, but if you could provide a reference in the 7110.65 that actually prescribes valid instructions for controllers, then I'd be happy to concede).

 

240/10000 hard coded into the FMC makes a ton of sense, actually.  Again: there is a hard limit of 250 knots under 10000 feet for airports in the United States (in the real aircraft, the airport database actually drives this value changing to local regs, where this is known).  That being the case, setting that in where it's set is both realistic and makes a ton of sense.  Futher, as mentioned before, the crew can simply delete it, where necessary.  If you have a problem with that. then I suggest taking it up with Boeing.

 

 

 

Your first reply was talking about how you are mostly in Europe... and now you are denying what happens in America. So which are you an expert on?

 

For one, he actually flies the plane in question, which I don't think you do, so there's that.  Additionally, he's not the only one questioning your expertise on American procedures.  I am, and I'm the one who has worked directly with the FAA before (and have a meeting with them again next Thursday).

 

Quite frankly, despite what you assert you know, you really don't know what you're talking about regarding the 250/10 rule.

 

 

You are just projecting here. I gave you a real world example and all you do is call me a liar and say that I claimed to know it all? You post here like you are a pilot, it sounds like make believe.

 

You gave a real world anecdote, which was not in line at all with either the regulations, or the controller "handbook."  As such, it's essentially hearsay evidence.  If you provide facts to the contrary (a recording of a controller waiving a speed, or an aircraft that's not one that would get the 117d exemption going over 250 in a non-emergency status), then I have a feeling both of us would give you more credit.

 

As it stands, though, you're ignoring the facts I'm presenting to you.  They're very black and white:

The FARs disagree with you; and

The controller handbook doesn't support you (the 7110.65).

 

Both of those are what we use in FAA-land to run our NAS.  I have a hard time believing some random internet comment over a book of regs, prescribed controller phraseology, and all of my observation of NAS practices.

From my experience of flying to US, the hard limit of 250/10000 can never be waived on arrival because of what had been mentioned here before. However on departure, high speed can be requested and 90% of the time approved in climb with departure control to fly above 250kts. I always tell delivery for what we need to give them a heads up when I read back the clearance.

 

In LA or ORD ( I don't remember ) ATC will file complain against the airline if the airplane flies above 250kts on departure without a clearance. That's why we always ask before we wind the speed up after airborne, and usually it is approached, I have never had one occasion that we had to fly all the way to 10000ft to clean up.

 

But you think about it, on a heavy 773ER at MTOW out if JFK/ LAX the clean speed is often 265kts, keeping it below 250kts required keeping flap one down for a considerable amount of time. And waste a lot of fuel.

 

Having considered 77ER is actually not an extreme case, think of an heavy weight A340-300 with a clean speed of 270-280kts and the 4 hair dryers to power the airplane, if it had to stay below 250kts it will have to keep flap 2 ( equivalent to about flap 5 on the 777 ) for ages because the rate of the climb is barely 1500ft/min depends in OAT.

 

Apparently this special rule only happens in the US perhaps due to high traffic volumes, even in Canada high speed on departure is usually granted automatically during quiet periods or at least to around 270-280kts for clean up. In Asian countries like Japan, Korea, Taiwan and Hong Kong especially, high speed is usually approved by ATC to at least 280kts because they understand that people with heavy weight wants to clean up the airplane as soon as possible.

 

my opinion is, I don't pay for fuel, if for ATC reason they try to keep me slow and low on departure or arrival I always follow the rules unless in emergency. I usually don't really care if my clean speed is below 250kts on departure, on. Arrival the clean is speed is almost always below 250kts unless you weigh more than 300tons.

 

 

But you think about it, on a heavy 773ER at MTOW out if JFK/ LAX the clean speed is often 265kts, keeping it below 250kts required keeping flap one down for a considerable amount of time. And waste a lot of fuel.

 

Yes, though this is not not in line with what Kyle mentioned about waiwing the restriction - this is governed by the other rule, the minimum safe speed rule. i.e. they can and will let you fly clean even if that means more than 250 knots.

 

They cannot let you fly over 250 because they feel like it,

Dude...he flies the 777 for a living..boeing makes the 777..and you are challenging both of these unkess you are a 777 pilot..

You are just projecting here. I gave you a real world example and all you do is call me a liar and say that I claimed to know it all? You post here like you are a pilot, it sounds like make believe.

Sometimes, someone on the internet is right. This time, it could be Kyle (again) ...   B)

 

EDIT:

My bad ... Kyle for the FAA regulations and Rob due to his RW pilot experience - thank you, Julian!

 

And I finally got ORBX NZQN!   :yahoo:

Edited June 20, 201411 yr by olli4740

 

 

I gave you a real world example and all you do is call me a liar

You were given a real world example, and ignored it.

 

 

This time, it could be Kyle (again) ...

Don't forget Rob :)

 

 

And I finally got ORBX NZQN! :yahoo:

Well Olli, you better start practicing your figure 8 circuits. Get it wrong, you will end up bring old Fanny Cradocks washing off the line

Kyle I understand the rule and I was pointing out that it is almost always requested and granted from clearance delivery or waived by departure control. In other parts of the world they are even less strict about speed. But that is besides the point. My point though is 240/10000 coded into the fmc makes no sense.

240 below 10,000 isn't a big deal. Some guys like having a buffer and some don't. From time to while perfing the box, I find that the guys who flew the jet before me used 240 for 10,000. I always re-enter 250. You can fly as slow as you want below 10,000 unless ATC gives you a speed restriction. For example, at major airports, they will usually ask you to maintain 180 to the marker. Depending on how far I am from the field, I will slow earlier to accommodate configuration changes. I've seen guys manually set 245 in the speed window. Another reason guys like the 240 is that it allows selection of slats/flaps without having to slow. If your max flap speed is 250 or 240, you have to slow before configuring. As you know, its harder to slow down while descending. I like to have at least a 5 knot before on max speeds before selecting a flap setting. I've never been yelled at while being a few knots fast while transitioning to 250 while descending below 10,000. While in the right seat, I've had the controller request my indicated while the guy flying was 9 kts over while hand flying. With the onset of FANS avionics systems, the controller sees your indicated speed and altitude along with your selected speed and altitude. We have this system in 2 of our G550s. It does make you be more precise when hand flying.