Malaysian 777 down in Ukraine

[nam1394 12]

 

My only consolation is that they are no longer in pain, and their souls at rest.

+1

 

They no longer have to live in this messed up world. I just hope they didn't suffer.

[virtualstuff 770]

After I left the Army, I spent several years working as a Paramedic in Raleigh, NC. During those three years I saw a lot of horrible things. My final callout was to the scene of a hit-and-run where a nine year old boy riding his bike was killed. He was hit at such a high speed that his little body literally exploded and was strewn along the road for thirty feet.

 

After delivering the remains to the county morgue, I told my driver to take me home, and I'd come get my car later. I still have nightmares about it forty-two years later.

I feel with you Bill sometimes the world is just up site down

[SolRayz 392]

Has there been any update on the ceasefire? The last I heard was a three day ceasefire to allow for an investigation. Not sure three days is enough?!?

[fghdgdfdfgfgf 111]

I think, as a juror, I'd have a hard time excusing Malaysian Airlines from significant responsibility in this loss. Since the beginning of this calender year how many aircraft have been lost over the Ukraine?

[A320FAN 370]

No survivors on the malaysian MH17. It's not an accident, it's an act of terrorism.

[tf51d 284]

 

 

Don't get me wrong. I agree with you that the most prudent thing to do would have been to stay clear of the whole region. But I don't think MAS is to blame. The airspace over Ukraine has seen countless airline traffic transiting for as long as this conflict has excisted.



Hindsight is 20/20.

 

Not so much hindsight as the US FAA in addition to banning US airlines from flying in this area issued an international warning about the dangers involved months ago. They were ignored by the rest of the world. History has shown we are a reactionary society. We tend not to take preventive action until something serious happens like this, instead of heeding the early warning signs. Only now has Euro air control shutdown this corridor.

[mcbellette 145]

Isn't it widely believed but unconfirmed that the Israeli state airline El-Al has fitted their aircraft with countermeasures equipment, or at least some of them that fly over troublesome regions?

[Sponge 74]

Isn't it widely believed but unconfirmed that the Israeli state airline El-Al has fitted their aircraft with countermeasures equipment, or at least some of them that fly over troublesome regions?

 

From Wikipedia.

 

Elta's Flight Guard is a missile detection and avoidance system that is installed on more than 200 military aircraft and helicopters as well as on several VIP commercial aircraft, and has been also installed in aircraft of the El Al, Arkia and Israir fleets that fly to high risk destinations.

In September 2003, a year after an attempt was made to shoot down an Arkia Israel Airlines Boeing 757 in Mombasa, Kenya in 2002, the Israeli Ministry of Transportation selected Elta Systems to perform advanced flight tests of Flight Guard for protecting its commercial aircraft. Part of the funding was used to obtain certification of the system by Israel's Civil Aviation Authority (CAA).

The system chosen comprised a radar-based missile approach warning system (MAWS) and countermeasure dispensing system. The system was chosen since it is specifically designed to defend low-flying aircraft against MANPADs, such as those utilized in the attack in Kenya. The automated system uses doppler radar to detect incoming missiles, before firing IMI-designed civilian flares to decoy incoming infrared-homed missiles.

[EngineRoom 205]

They were ignored by the rest of the world.

 

No.

 

Many European airlines have been routing around this area. British Airways and KLM for example.

 

I understand EASA has had an advisory out against flying through this area, and the UK's CAA has had a NOTAM out for several days now (since the last Ukrainian transport aircraft was downed) that strongly advised against flying through this area.

 

However, many - but certainly not all - airlines have continued flying through the area despite what has been going on there. I believe when MH17 went down there were two other aircraft from Singapore Airlines and Air India very close by.

 

This is why I believe it won't be long before Malaysia Airlines will be hit with some major litigation from the families of the victims.

[Great Ozzie 101]

Not so much hindsight as the US FAA in addition to banning US airlines from flying in this area issued an international warning about the dangers involved months ago.

Link please for the ban?

 

There's a SFAR - 91.1607 Prohibition Against Certain Flights in the Simferopol (UKFV) Flight Information Region (FIR) (appears this was previously an FDC NOTAM).   But this Crimea FIR restriction appears to be at least 150 miles SW from the crash location.

 

[Tom Allensworth 1,532]

This is why I believe it won't be long before Malaysia Airlines will be hit with some major litigation from the families of the victims.

 

They are going to be hard pressed to overcome the fact that the ICAO approved flight routing though that region as they considered it safe. MAS took the most expeditious and cost saving route, approved by the ICAO. If any organization should be held accountable, the families should probably be looking the ICAO squarely in the eye.

[dusty_sourdough 8]

 Agree Tom, only if for the purpose of possible compensation for their losses. Otherwise...I say responsibility  should be focused squarely where it belongs..on those who caused this tragedy to happen.

[mcbellette 145]

Tom, you're right. However, the final say rests with each individual airline. Malaysian Airlines could've (and in hindsight, should've) given that region of Ukraine a wide berth as soon as that military transport was shot down a number of days ago. It's all very well for ICAO to say the airspace is safe, but they have nothing riding on that information whereas the airlines most certainly do.

[EngineRoom 205]

 

 

They are going to be hard pressed to overcome the fact that the ICAO approved flight routing though that region as they considered it safe. MAS took the most expeditious and cost saving route, approved by the ICAO. If any organization should be held accountable, the families should probably be looking the ICAO squarely in the eye.

 

In my line of work we have numerous advisories and codes that we are not compelled to follow. I was always told if I should ever entertain thoughts of cutting corners or compromising safety then my thought process should start at the board of enquiry and work backwards from there. Although I'm not compelled to follow all those advisories and codes, if I ever do have an incident occur the first thing the judge or prosecution lawyer will be asking me is "Did you follow the advisory/code?". If my answer is "No." then I'm in trouble.

 

The ICAO may not have advised against routing through this area, but various national level authorities, including the US, UK, and EASA did. Several airlines were already routing around this area. MH17 was not the first aircraft to be shot down in this area. It wasn't even the first non-combat aircraft to be shot down, as several transport aircraft have been shot down over eastern Ukraine recently. This is the first part of the NOTAM the UK CAA issued 14th June:

 

 

 

E) POTENTIALLY HAZARDOUS SITUATION UKRAINE AIRSPACE, PARTICULARLY OVER
CRIMEA, THE BLACK SEA, AND THE SEA OF AZOV.
DUE TO THE POTENTIAL FOR CONFLICTING AIR TRAFFIC CONTROL (ATC)
INSTRUCTIONS FROM UKRAINIAN AND RUSSIAN AUTHORITIES AND FOR THE
RELATED POTENTIAL MISIDENTIFICATION OF CIVIL AIRCRAFT, UK AIRCRAFT
OPERATORS ARE STRONGLY ADVISED TO AVOID, UNTIL FURTHER NOTICE, THE
AIRSPACE OVER CRIMEA, THE BLACK SEA, AND THE SEA OF AZOV, WITHIN THE
FOLLOWING LATERAL LIMITS:

 

It's a conflict area where to factions with serious weaponry are facing off against eachother.

 

I'm not singling out Malaysia Airlines as being negligent, it could just as easily have been a Singapore Airlines or Air India aircraft that was shot down. However, it wouldn't have been a British Airways of KLM aircraft as they have been actively routing around the conflict zone.

 

As I said, I'm won't be surprised in the slightest if the families of the victims decide to sue Malaysia Airlines.

[Tom Allensworth 1,532]

 Agree Tom, only if for the purpose of possible compensation for their losses. Otherwise...I say responsibility  should be focused squarely where it belongs..on those who caused this tragedy to happen.

 

Exactly. The perpetrators are the ones that deserve global condemnation and brought to justice. My hope is that with that, the families of the lost ones will find some small measure of solace in bringing them to that justice that they surely deserve.