Maybe he could be castrated with his own medal?

it appears the incident is classified as Private Air Crew

the investigator concluded with recommendation to rectify this in the future

nothing is mentioned in regards to disciplinary steps

this incident is less than month old;

i think he may have to go to court for this at some point

What do you think!!!

 

Did you mean the exclamation marks or should that have been a question mark?(only one is necessary btw)

 

I asked a question, so what I think has got nothing to do with it.

in the investigators report; there are three counts directly towards the instructor

• Forgot to close the fuel cap
• Didn’t estimate correctly fuel required
• Didn’t conduct emergency procedure as needed

Pluto tower misconduct

• Delayed response to Mayday call
• Asking the question - can you land it (distracting the pilot and can add stress to the emergency procedure)
• Asking if he needs help sent over (she should have sent help regardless, not ask if he needs it; if he said no and they crashed; they could not change their mind mangled in the trees)

And the correct forced landing procuderes were not followed. In the UK he probably would loose his instructors licence.

This idea of "not following procedures leading to license revocation" is off-the-wall to me.

 

Procedures are there to aid in 'survival'.  The CFI did what was important: Fly the plane first! and then head to a field.  Even airline pilots have been killed because they failed to make 'fly the plane first' their priority.  If you can get to the other stuff (restart procedure / communicating / shutdown before landing) fine and dandy.  If not... so be it.

 

As bendead mentioned earlier, much of your brain gets absorbed in doing what you HAVE to do.  The only way I know to alleviate that is thru frequent training and being mentally prepared.

 

And what ditch, for Pete's sake?

 

The instructor probably trusted he'd do the preflight properly.

Trust is fine... but, as an instructor, you have to verify.  Ron (N400QW) spoke to this very thing.

 

 

Oh yes let's troubleshoot at 1000ft AGL while we look for a place to land away from Afula

Well this is what I was saying previously... trim to your best glide and pick a field / proceed toward it.  He didn't do that (which would have bought some distance & time).

 

And you don't have to troubleshoot... just hit a few memory items if able... and secure the plane if able.  It has to be practiced from time to time.

 

----------------------

I think the report got it right (what Chris reported earlier).  Well done for walking away... knuckleheaded (no excuse) on the fuel stuff... and could have done a number of things better procedurally.  Chief pilot should have a word and possibly a flight review on Engine-Out procedures.  But to lose a license?  Hyperbole imo.  I could see the flight school cutting him loose (i.e. fired).

 

This is a very good example of keeping a number of things in mind when that low.  I can remember from my student days Kershner (the Aviation writer) said to always be aware where the wind was from, and keep an idea of available fields in case one is needed for a precautionary landing / engine out.  

 

As an example, I would have to fly underneath Class C airspace to get in and out of an outlying airport where I instructed.  I can tell you, being roughly 1000' agl for that period, not only was my head on a swivel looking for traffic and making sure I didn't bust the airspace overhead... but also I was doing a, "there's a good field... there's a good field..." as we flew along our merry way.

 

Down this low is not a good time to be surprised.

 

imo he should be grounded for some time; the careless preflight check

That would seem reasonable to me.  He risked his and his student's life with his carelessness.

Some of you guys are doing your level best to question the decisions made by this pilot, and I am struggling to understand why. You can quote correct procedures all day long when you have the time to do it. This guy was more interested in getting the plane down and walking away from it.

I so agree with you, Chris!   This guy is in an emergency real-time situation, and he is juggling a MILLION things going through his head, besides 'hard procedures'...and for one thing....just like a water landing, with wave action and height to consider......did the long field have tillage that might have caused the plane to flip upon the tires touching down?  So many things....and man...I don't care what anybody would say..I'd want as MUCH SPEED/LIFT under my wings right up to the very time I have totally committed to the 'spot' of undercarriage contact.  You are all kidding me, right?  Some on this thread are arm-chair critiquing this man's walk-away (no injuries to the occupants) landing?   Jeez....  How many of us might need to go to the bathroom for an underwear change...for gawd's sake!  I think under the obvious stress of this situation, he did a GREAT JOB....to land that plane....damage can happen to the sled...but to walk away without a drop of blood showing, a bruise, a broken bone, or at worst...death,.......is a GOOD LANDING, a 'correct' landing because life was sustained...and in this case...their bodies, not even damaged.

 

My two cents, anyway.....

I think under the obvious stress of this situation, he did a GREAT JOB....to land that plane....damage can happen to the sled...but to walk away without a drop of blood showing, a bruise, a broken bone, or at worst...death,.......is a GOOD LANDING, a 'correct' landing because life was sustained...and in this case...their bodies, not even damaged.

 

If you pay close attention to the various posts you will find that the critics generally possess pilot's licenses, as I do, and the supporters do not.  The instructor was wrong from the word go, and he risked a crash by making a tight last minute turn with the magnetos still on.  He should have committed to an engine off landing at 1,000 feet or so, certainly by 500 feet, and he should have picked the best field to land in, if necessary crabbing the aircraft to get into a good field that happened to be close.  Like all of us with PPLs he will have been trained to do this.  That he didn't indicates panic, not coolness under pressure.

Edited July 29, 201411 yr by n4gix
Fixed up the quoted text.

I didn't know how to deal with quote so I'll repeat my part of my post above ...

 

f you pay close attention to the various posts you will find that the critics generally possess pilot's licenses, as I do, and the supporters do not.  The instructor was wrong from the word go, and he risked a crash by making a tight last minute turn with the magnetos still on.  He should have committed to an engine off landing at 1,000 feet or so, certainly by 500 feet, and he should have picked the best field to land in, if necessary crabbing the aircraft to get into a good field that happened to be close.  Like all of us with PPLs he will have been trained to do this.  That he didn't indicates panic, not coolness under pressure.

I absolutely respect your opinion, and post-landing review, as a trained holder of a P.P.L.   I only know, that I have been through a few harrowing motorcycle incidents, brought on by other motorists and wildlife on the road in my many years of the sport.  I have learned...that the best method....at the time, and viewed by retrospect, was the one that brought you to a stop, not crashed, not in harm's way, and still alive to think back upon the incident, later.  I guess that is what I was trying to convey in my post. Yes, I agree with you..there are hard procedures that a trained P.P.L holder SHOULD do, in a text-book incident.  There are things I have been trained to do, through accident avoidance for the proper operation and use of riding a motorcycle. That being said...the mind and intellect, in being faced with a life or death split second decision...that, especially on a motorcycle, WILL determine the, next few seconds of outcome, not the luxury of perhaps minutes....usually is best served by the gut instinct of the operator, that being groomed by prior hard procedural training, whether it be on a motorcycle, or in the cockpit of an airplane facing dire straits.  Humans hold a massive capability to process, and put all the dots in a proper line....to maintain life.  So, I will stand by my assertion (as a motorcycling life-long rider, who is still here....) that whatever he did....and how he did it....and how he decided in split seconds to 'do it'...was the ultimately, correct methodology. He brought both himself, and his charge, down to a landing that they both, unharmed....unharmed...walked away from.  I wouldn't have a problem flying with this instructor, again..... 

"I agree with you..there are hard procedures that a trained P.P.L holder SHOULD do, in a text-book incident."

 

This was a text book incident.  Clear weather, aircraft intact, plenty of altitude, many choices of places to land, engine out -- exactly what PPLs are trained to deal with.  Anyone who has provably panicked behind the controls should not be allowed to carry passengers, much less instruct.

 

EDIT:  I forgot to add "daylight" to the conditions.  It doesn't get any easier than the situation at hand unless you still have 10,000 feet of runway in front of you.

"I agree with you..there are hard procedures that a trained P.P.L holder SHOULD do, in a text-book incident."

 

This was a text book incident.  Clear weather, aircraft intact, plenty of altitude, many choices of places to land, engine out -- exactly what PPLs are trained to deal with.  Anyone who has provably panicked behind the controls should not be allowed to carry passengers, much less instruct.

 

EDIT:  I forgot to add "daylight" to the conditions.  It doesn't get any easier than the situation at hand unless you still have 10,000 feet of runway in front of you.

Read and noted, and have no cause to argue or challenge anything you have typed.  You can't argue anything you stated.  Simple fact.  But of course, no matter what filters are put in place, as well as pre-requisites of formal training by anyone of authority....all humans, will react, whether in civil purvue, or military purvue, not 100 percent as the next, of equal level of their training.  Not even a highly trained U.S. Marine under battle-duress.  

Speaking of fuel caps..

 

Aug 2013 I went over to Florida and started my ppl-h. (finished my ir in january and cpl in april this year..doing europe stuff now.. yikes!). In between doing those licenses I

was home in norway flying a privately hired R22 to gain some pic hours.

 

On one occasion I was taking my brother out for a trip. As Ive trained as a flight mech in the RNoAF, I am extremely thorough on my preflight checks, always following

the book as a minimum, and going the extra to double check.

 

Well, after that flight, as the rotor came to a stop on the tarmac, I climbed out and looked upon my ship.. And my face turned white.. The auxiliry fuel tank cap was missing.. 

I stood there in disbelief thinking "how in the world did this happen?!?!"

 

I knew that we took off 2-3 parking spots away from where i landed, and ran over to see, and what do you know, there it was, laying on the ground.

I knew it had been on before start up, but realized then, it must not have been tightly enough turned. As rotors on a helicopter create alot of vibration in the mid-rpm ranges,

its most likely been shaken off during engine warm-up.

 

I always check that the caps are tight. Maybe it felt tight, but didnt, Im not shure.

 

Ever since, I now always check it two times on each side instead of just one..

 

If any of you read flight international-magazine, you`ll now about a column called "I learned flying from that.."

 

What I love about that, is that even the most seasoned captains tell about stupid mistakes they have done, many even after 10000+ hours of flying.

To err is human..

 

(but to not actually check how much fuel you have, is an unforgivable sin! So im not protecting the instructor if he was reckless!)

"... all humans, will react, whether in civil purvue, or military purvue, not 100 percent as the next, of equal level of their training.  Not even a highly trained U.S. Marine under duress. "

 

Absolutely correct -- and those who have provably panicked should not be allowed to put others at risk ever again, especially not instructors.

 

Flying is much more about headwork than aircraft handling skills.  Part of headwork is learning to compartmentalize fear -- to set it aside (even make it work for you) so that it doesn't interfere with doing what you need to do in an emergency situation. 

 

In an emergency you must assess the situation as calmly as possible, formulate a plan of action as calmly as possible and then stick to the plan as calmly as possible.  Letting fear take over, as this instructor obviously did, only makes things worse and may well lead to disaster.

 

I was in a building that was hit by a GA aircraft precisely because the pilot, who was making an emergency landing owing to having run out of fuel, a) had not switched off his magnetos, and b] wracked the aircraft around in a steep turn just a couple of hundred feet above the ground in a panicked attempt to make the runway at Princeton Airport.   I know this because I spoke with him after the crash (he was only banged up a little).

 

His steep turn caused residual tank fuel to surge into the engine.  The resulting sudden burst of power during his steep left turn rolled him inverted, causing him to dive into the A-frame roof of the building I was in.  Only that cushioned crash saved his life.

Did you mean the exclamation marks or should that have been a question mark?(only one is necessary btw)

 

I asked a question, so what I think has got nothing to do with it.

I'm perfectly aware of how many exclamation marks to use. In future I'll use as many as I wish!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You asked a question and I asked for your opinion.

"... all humans, will react, whether in civil purvue, or military purvue, not 100 percent as the next, of equal level of their training.  Not even a highly trained U.S. Marine under duress. "

 

Absolutely correct -- and those who have provably panicked should not be allowed to put others at risk ever again, especially not instructors.

 

Flying is much more about headwork than aircraft handling skills.  Part of headwork is learning to compartmentalize fear -- to set it aside (even make it work for you) so that it doesn't interfere with doing what you need to do in an emergency situation. 

 

In an emergency you must assess the situation as calmly as possible, formulate a plan of action as calmly as possible and then stick to the plan as calmly as possible.  Letting fear take over, as this instructor obviously did, only makes things worse and may well lead to disaster.

 

I was in a building that was hit by a GA aircraft precisely because the pilot, who was making an emergency landing owing to having run out of fuel, a) had not switched off his magnetos, and b] wracked the aircraft around in a steep turn just a couple of hundred feet above the ground in a panicked attempt to make the runway at Princeton Airport.   I know this because I spoke with him after the crash (he was only banged up a little).

 

His steep turn caused residual tank fuel to surge into the engine.  The resulting sudden burst of power during his steep left turn rolled him inverted, causing him to dive into the A-frame roof of the building I was in.  Only that cushioned crash saved his life.

Panic and/or fear in you, or around you as you state, can distract you, freeze you, can kill you, or another.   I have seen this in my lifetime...and absolutely agree.  That is why I have adopted an uber attitude, of before any from the comfort of their arm-chair, (and this is not directed to you, by any means...but only my general personal philosophy!) will quarter-back a dire situation/action they have read/viewed...should temper perhaps, because they have not yet, been put through that ring of fire,  they have not been... in that person's set of shoes....   

 

I don't argue with one thing you have posted, but I just felt there was sporadically throughout this thread,... a 'well....if I WOULD HAVE BEEN AT THOSE CONTROLS, mister...'this and that' would have been different.  I watched a man die in my arms, many, many years ago. I have spent a lifetime thinking of what I could have done to stop that, watching helplessly, as his life leached out upon the ground......what I could have done to make it 'different'. Nothing could have been done, 'differently'.  That's the beauty of this thread...for those that were NOT in this cockpit over Israel....it's an easy deal....to say...what could...have...been, ...the outcome, what I would have done....rather then he.   Just sayin'.....  Everything you stated, can not be set aside. No....but then, LIFE can interfere with it all.....Life doesn't care about levels of training.... formal or not.

 

All the best,

 

Ses

I repeat......was the last second right turn initiated because of some obstacle that can't be seen in the video footage?