Sign in to follow this  
jfriz

Modeling the aircraft for icing

Recommended Posts

I am wondering why PMDG has not included this  in their airplanes?   Has it been thought of?  Like the Majestic uses.     Windshield, wing, engine, icing.     This is what makes the Q400 such a great realistic airplane to fly.

 

Maybe the B747 v2 will have it..

Best,

JFriz

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Help AVSIM continue to serve you!
Please donate today!

I am taking a wild guess here, but I think it is because aircraft like the 777 mainly fly above any icing conditions, while the Q400 is more exposed to weather down below. Icing is also not very well simulated in FSX.

 

They do have accurate thrust reduction with wing and anti-ice modelled at least.

 

Edit: Oh, I misred. You were talking strictly of the visuals? Then it might be performance considerations.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am wondering why PMDG has not included this  in their airplanes?   Has it been thought of?  Like the Majestic uses.     Windshield, wing, engine, icing.     This is what makes the Q400 such a great realistic airplane to fly.

 

Maybe the B747 v2 will have it..

Best,

JFriz

They model icing on the JS41.

 

Billy Bluestar

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am wondering why PMDG has not included this  in their airplanes?   Has it been thought of?  Like the Majestic uses.     Windshield, wing, engine, icing.     This is what makes the Q400 such a great realistic airplane to fly.

 

Maybe the B747 v2 will have it..

Best,

JFriz

 

 

Once airborne, icing isn't an issue for turbojet aircraft.  With hot bleed air anti-ice and the fact that they spend only several minutes each flight at icing levels, it sure would be a waste of time to even consider the effects.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In the Q400 we were in the icing levels quite a bit. In the 767, we're above it all for a good majority of my flights. SAT -40ºC and below, boeing doesn't even factor icing into the equation, which is pretty much everything above FL340. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

More about icing,

I have over 10,000 hours of real time in a B737.      I have  encountered severe icing several times, windshield,  and wings.  This occurred during  holding, and, or approaches.  Light to moderate icing on climb outs several times also.

 

Anyway, I use my simulator  for training, and to have the icing effects modeled would make the experience that much better.

 

Yes, it is true at the higher altitudes icing is not a problem.

 

I don't have the J41,[  the only PMDG that I don't have]. So, Billy you say that the windshield will show ice, and the leading edge of the wings will turn white, like on the Majestic Q400?   [yes, visuals]

 

Thanks for the replies though.

JFriz

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, visual icing effects which the anti-ice will clear. The other PMDG sims use the default FSX icing model. So icing effects exist, after a fashion, but nothing visual. The problem in the 737 and 777 is apparently that they are at the FSX limit for animations, so there is no spare capacity to create these effects. 747v2 will have the same limitation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

More about icing,

I have over 10,000 hours of real time in a B737.      I have  encountered severe icing several times, windshield,  and wings.  This occurred during  holding, and, or approaches.  Light to moderate icing on climb outs several times also.

 

Anyway, I use my simulator  for training, and to have the icing effects modeled would make the experience that much better.

 

Yes, it is true at the higher altitudes icing is not a problem.

 

I don't have the J41,[  the only PMDG that I don't have]. So, Billy you say that the windshield will show ice, and the leading edge of the wings will turn white, like on the Majestic Q400?   [yes, visuals]

 

Thanks for the replies though.

JFriz

 

Jfritz,

 

We have simulated what you are looking for on the Q400- windshield and wing icing effects- as they happen in reality. They had me as a consultant so they got it right! :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have over 10,000 hours of real time in a B737. I have encountered severe icing several times, windshield, and wings. This occurred during holding, and, or approaches. Light to moderate icing on climb outs several times also.

I've been flying over 40 years commercially and in the military and I don't do "Severe Icing." The main icing concern for me is "Breaking Action." :)

 

I'll get a couple of screen shots for you the next time I fly the JS41. The JS41 maybe the best of all the PMDG models. :)

 

Billy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 


The main icing concern for me is "Breaking Action." :)

 

I see what you did there. Though, I'd change that simile from a smile to something else as I see the runway coming to an end.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Brendan said,

We have simulated what you are looking for on the Q400- windshield and wing icing effects- as they happen in reality. They had me as a consultant so they got it right!

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Brendan, 

 That's what I mean about the visual on icing...

 Good job.

Thank you,

Jfriz

 

Edit.. Billy, would like to see the icing screen shots on the J41, I might have to buy it!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Brendan said,

We have simulated what you are looking for on the Q400- windshield and wing icing effects- as they happen in reality. They had me as a consultant so they got it right!

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Brendan, 

 That's what I mean about the visual on icing...

 Good job.

Thank you,

Jfriz

 

Edit.. Billy, would like to see the icing screen shots on the J41, I might have to buy it!

 

One thing I should mention- these are visual effects only, but are "intelligent" and should be commensurate with the amount of icing level FSX/Activesky/Addon is providing. Structurally, you won't really have ice on the wings. But again- to see out the window you'll have to turn on the heat! I'm not sure if we add "ice weight" as our flight modeling exists outside of the FSX engine. Just pretend there's a check airman behind you about to yell if you don't set your switches up properly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 


would like to see the icing screen shots on the J41, I might have to buy it!

 

I believe there are a few screenshots of icing on the J41 product page.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As some have said already... Just another thing to drag down frame rates. A lot of people want as real as it gets and PMDG is as far as its gonna go for that but visually simulating icing is a little off the main point of having the plane. Well at least that's what I believe.

 

Avery Hammerman

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In the file "icev10.zip" both in this library and in Flightsim's, there is a rather long and involved explanation of how MSFS (FS9 in particaular, but I believe it applies to FSX also) handles (or doesn't) icing conditions, and what to do to make them model it properly. The included gauge, (0 width, 0 height, just add it right into a panel) makes it all happen correctly, thus properly simulating icing as it really happens in the real world. It also includes a very nice indicator gauge you can add in, as well as the instructions on how to make the ".air" file work properly for DE-icining, as in how to ensure the de-icing systems of any aircraft will function correctly.

It may be worth a look, if you want...

And as to the biggrer liners not worrying about icing, all I can ever think of is the Air Florida (a 737, I think) flight out of Washington DC one winter night that wound up in the Patomac right after take-off...as well as the heroic efforts of all those who saved those were savable...

Long time ago...

Pat☺

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And as to the biggrer liners not worrying about icing, all I can ever think of is the Air Florida (a 737, I think) flight out of Washington DC one winter night that wound up in the Patomac right after take-off...as well as the heroic efforts of all those who saved those were savable...

Long time ago...

Pat☺

 

And that was pilot error.   :(

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

, I'd change that simile from a smile to something else as I see the runway coming to an end.

Back in the "day" on the Mighty DC-10 landing RWY07L at PANC with breaking action reported as "FAIR" in moderate snow. When I passed RWY33 I hadn't even started to slow down. :-)

 

Billy Bluestar

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
And that was pilot error.   :(

 

 

I don't recall the "official" causes, I just  know they at fist blamed wing leading edge icing for loss of lift, or maybe it was just "wing icing", and when they went into the noise reduction routine, the plane stalled without room to recover. If it was the piltos faults then so be it, I have a horrible memory...

My point was, or was trying to be, that even the tubes do have icing problems :) May well be only under specific and limited conditions, but it's still there. That was all I was trying to say, in my roundabout and obviously not very good way...

Pat☺

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 


If it was the piltos faults then so be it, I have a horrible memory...

 

The pilots were completely at fault for that crash. The crew did not use the engine anti-ice, took of with ice on the wings, and the captain did not reject the takeoff when the FO realized the engines were not producing enough thrust.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's correct, the pilots were from Florida, were not properly trained in icing conditions.  The co-pilot was making the take off, and only advanced the thrust levers half way, they made many mistakes.

 

Jfriz

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You guys are all totally correct, the pilots, yes both, were totally at fault for the final end result. The point I was trying to get across was that the airliners DO in fact have to worry about icing, albeit only during certain portions of the flight. I was simply trying to make sure for myself of what Zack was saying, was all. I wasn't arguing against pilot error in any way :) They DID make many mistakes, but the jet still succumbed, in the end, to icing. Yes, entirely due to the pilot's mistakes, but icing nonetheless. That's all I was saying :)

And yes, FS9 and FSX don't model it well at all, that's why I recommended the ice01.zip file :) It helps model it so any plane in either sim can have the effects of icing properly installed and working, to help add "realism" to a flight :) No matter if it's only during the first 3 mnutes of a flight, or the entire thing, no matter if it's a 787 or a C150. That's all I was working on saying. I didn't mean to head the thread in the direction I think I did, and I apologise  for that.

Hope this clears things up a little. I guess I threw waaaaay too much mud into my original post. Sorry bout that :)

Pat☺

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi  Pat, no problem at all. 

 

    I am not a gamer, so I try to look at my flight simming as real as I can get it.

 

I was giving simulator training[[in a Boeing full motion] when the Air Florida crash happened.   We had to immediately re-vamp our training procedures.

 

Cheers,

Jfriz

 

edit  I will have a look at the  ice01.zip file

edit  http://www.flightsim.com/vbfs/fslib.php?searchid=29600482    A link to this file, I'll try it in the Cessna.

I might suggest that the PMDG developers take a look.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I might suggest that the PMDG developers take a look.

Got to admit, that would be pretty great. I'd spend hours trying to recreate the Air Florida crash as closely as possible. I live 15 minutes east of Dulles Int'l and about a half of an hour from Reagan. That crash may have had a decent effect on aviation, but it had and still has a huge impact in my area. Luckily this is because it's one of the very few commercial crashes in the DMV area.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@JFriz: Glad I could help a little, if help I did :) I doubt though the author will give PMDG permission, he seemed pretty adamant about it staying free, and they make a lot of money.

 

@~Vette: If you know the littlest bit about Panel editing, you can add it into any plane you like quite easily :)

 

Pat☺

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this