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Gregg_Seipp

Approach and Landing

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I find this airplane fairly difficult on approach and flair.  Sometimes I've had the runway almost out of my view to the top of my screen.  I *think* I've improved it somewhat by paying more attention to AOA and airspeed (85KIAS) but then I come to the flair.  At 40 degrees flaps it *really* seems to want to land on all three wheels at right about the same time.  Anybody have any experience with the real aircraft that they can offer?

 

Gregg

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In the years I've spent on the plane, I'd say probably at least 80% of the landings I've experienced are flaps 30. 15% flaps 15 or 40. And 5% flaps 0 (those always get your attention on touchdown).

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In the years I've spent on the plane, I'd say probably at least 80% of the landings I've experienced are flaps 30. 15% flaps 15 or 40. And 5% flaps 0 (those always get your attention on touchdown).

 

Hmmm...I read somewhere that landing should be performed at 40.  Does it tend to want to land flat when you do that? 

 

I tried several landings at 30 and did get somewhat of a flair.  Nothing I'd be hugely proud of.  77 Ng on final, 85 KIAS and hold it over the runway with the top of the dash at the horizon or so.  That about right?  BTW, the AN thing on the left side of the EADI is the AOA, right?  It moves a lot but you just keep it centered?

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I was experiencing the same frustration when in my early hours of this bird.... I then switched to flaps 15 under normal weight ranges for improved surfaces landings and it is much more normal.

 

Dont forget this aircraft is designed for unimproved surface landings. Flap 40 is meant to get the airspeed to minimum vref on short approach and to get the bird stopped within 1000 feet or less. In most of our cases we have plenty of runway to get her down and in some cases may have to keep the airspeed up for ATC purposes...

 

My suggestion - dont land with any more then flap 15. Flap 40 is challenging and to get this thing down and stopped can be alot of fun but you will have to learn how to land all over again.... Its good rainy day training.

 

I came across a -45 POH and nowhere in this book does it say flap 30 allowable for landing... Either flap 0, 15 or 40.

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My suggestion - dont land with any more then flap 15. Flap 40 is challenging and to get this thing down and stopped can be alot of fun but you will have to learn how to land all over again.... Its good rainy day training.

 

I watched a training video where the guy landed at KSUN with flaps 40.  Made it seem like old hat.  The reason I was doing flaps 40 was because I read this RW ops manual that says:

 

"All landings should be planned with 40 degrees of flaps unless weather conditions require otherwise."

 

source:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCwQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fcorpjet.net%2Fpdfs%2Fpilatus_pc-12_sample_ops_manual_draft.doc&ei=e_8-VMC4C9HHggTsi4HgAw&usg=AFQjCNGia9FW4N5LnQSTmZhv42km6skbBg&sig2=UOXs7Yy0vHnikBjBuZxVFQ&bvm=bv.77648437,d.eXY

 

...so, it's doable but... 

 

Having said that, if most pilots land at 30 then that's probably what I'll try.  I removed wind and got a decent flair on my last attempt with a lot of pulling back on the yoke.  And I'll try out some on flaps 15.  I wouldn't want to nose it in on 40 on any surface...really tilts the plane forward.

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Most of the PC12 landings I've seen, they are all very nosed down, they doesn't flare too much and they just pull up a bit before touchdown and touchdown, I've also seen in three wheels very common...

 

BTW is a very slow lander...is not difficult, it has a sweet point where you can have a nice flare, but most of them are not that "flareable"...you come down straight to the runway...is normal...

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Hmmm...I read somewhere that landing should be performed at 40.  Does it tend to want to land flat when you do that? 

 

I tried several landings at 30 and did get somewhat of a flair.  Nothing I'd be hugely proud of.  77 Ng on final, 85 KIAS and hold it over the runway with the top of the dash at the horizon or so.  That about right?  BTW, the AN thing on the left side of the EADI is the AOA, right?  It moves a lot but you just keep it centered?

 

Can't speak for a wide variety of individual Part 135 operator manuals, each operator could....well....operate differently.  But yes, at flaps 40, it is a pretty steep nose-down approach with not much flare...or at least the possibility of ballooning pretty good if you over-flare.  Yes, in this instance, that is an AOA indicator (it could vary based on the avionics package installed).  Flying AOA combined with airspeed certainly helps with stabilizing an approach.

 

 

I came across a -45 POH and nowhere in this book does it say flap 30 allowable for landing... Either flap 0, 15 or 40.

 

That's a new one to me, could be true; just not something I've seen.  0, 15, 30, 40 all authorized for landing is what I'm used to.  15 and 30 authorized for takeoff.  Maybe I'm mixing up -45's and -47's since I haven't worked with the -45 in a while.

 

I watched a training video where the guy landed at KSUN with flaps 40.  Made it seem like old hat.  The reason I was doing flaps 40 was because I read this RW ops manual that says:

 

"All landings should be planned with 40 degrees of flaps unless weather conditions require otherwise."

 

source:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCwQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fcorpjet.net%2Fpdfs%2Fpilatus_pc-12_sample_ops_manual_draft.doc&ei=e_8-VMC4C9HHggTsi4HgAw&usg=AFQjCNGia9FW4N5LnQSTmZhv42km6skbBg&sig2=UOXs7Yy0vHnikBjBuZxVFQ&bvm=bv.77648437,d.eXY

 

...so, it's doable but... 

 

Having said that, if most pilots land at 30 then that's probably what I'll try.  I removed wind and got a decent flair on my last attempt with a lot of pulling back on the yoke.  And I'll try out some on flaps 15.  I wouldn't want to nose it in on 40 on any surface...really tilts the plane forward.

 

Can't speak for that specific operator's manual.  By all means, if you'd like to simulate an operator or use a manual that desires flaps 40 landings, go for it.

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Can't speak for a wide variety of individual Part 135 operator manuals, each operator could....well....operate differently. But yes, at flaps 40, it is a pretty steep nose-down approach with not much flare...or at least the possibility of ballooning pretty good if you over-flare. Yes, in this instance, that is an AOA indicator (it could vary based on the avionics package installed). Flying AOA combined with airspeed certainly helps with stabilizing an approach.

 

 

 


Can't speak for that specific operator's manual. By all means, if you'd like to simulate an operator or use a manual that desires flaps 40 landings, go for it.

 

A flaps 40 landing might be something I'd try from time to time but, if 30 is common, I think I'd be more apt to that.  In a sim, you don't have the perspective you have RW so it can be tougher to quickly change attitude, I think, especially from nose down.  I guess the primary reason for using 40 would be runway length...a desire to use less of it?  Or practice?  Anyway, 30 was manageable.  I saw a YouTube video where I think the guy was using 15 and it looked like a normal landing like most airplanes. 

 

My only thing about the AOA is that it seems to hop around quite a bit.  Maybe that's an FSX thing, the way they coded it or a result of FSX turbulence (I had a slight turbulence.before I turned Active Sky off).

 

One more thing, on the ILS, do you fly 15 or 30 down from the FAF and at what speed?

 

 

 


I came across a -45 POH and nowhere in this book does it say flap 30 allowable for landing... Either flap 0, 15 or 40.

 

I have a Real World PC-12/45 POH (800 pages!....might be the same one Carenado used) that shows final approach speeds of:

Flaps 0 - 118 KIAS

Flaps 15 - 98

Flaps 30 - 89

Flaps 40 - 84

 

Gregg

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AOA can tend to bounce around a bit in turbulence or wind gusts.  But yes, at times FSX can compound the effect since turbulence has its flaws in the sim.

 

I'm based at an airport with a 10,000' runway, runway length definitely is one of the primary drivers (along with temperature/density altitude/terrain/obstacles).  Generally, flaps 40 was designed for the smaller or short fields...the rugged terrain.  Also, at a busy airport, it's sometimes appreciated to fly at a higher speed to mingle with business jets on approach.  Each flap setting has different demonstrated crosswind limits also, so add all of those factors up and it'll drive flap setting. 

 

So, usually, in my opinion and planning, I view:

-flaps 40 as the short/unimproved field with terrain or practice setting,

-flaps 30 as the common, middle-of-the-road setting,

-flaps 15 as perhaps the gusty winds setting or want a faster approach, longer roll,

-flaps 0 as the emergency/simulated practice landing (or really, really gusty crosswinds with sufficient runway).

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So, usually, in my opinion and planning, I view:

-flaps 40 as the short/unimproved field with terrain or practice setting,

-flaps 30 as the common, middle-of-the-road setting,

-flaps 15 as perhaps the gusty winds setting or want a faster approach, longer roll,

-flaps 0 as the emergency/simulated practice landing (or really, really gusty crosswinds with sufficient runway).

 

Very helpful.  And for the ILS?  What flap setting and speed is normal down final?

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Gregg

 

For a ILS approach, you will be landing on a longer runway. Try 100 knts 15* flaps for the entire approach through touchdown. I think you will be pleased with the the aircraft handles and you will use 3,000' or less.

 

Greg 

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For a ILS approach, you will be landing on a longer runway. Try 100 knts 15* flaps for the entire approach through touchdown. I think you will be pleased with the the aircraft handles and you will use 3,000' or less.

 

K...I'll try that.

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I was using 40 flaps and drug the tail a few time.  I am getting use to the A/C and now pretty mush slowing down and hitting the ground 15 flaps.  Anybody have any info on over stressing.  I am having some difficulty some difficulty when flying along at altitude (8000 to 1000) at 36.9 torque/fuel flow at 548 which is what Carenado says for Max cruise and the A/C becomes over stressed and FSX stops and resets.  I am going to cut power back next flight and see if that makes a difference.

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