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Driver170

Back course ILS

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I'm planning a flight from EGGP to EPSC

 

EPSC rwy in use is 13 non ILS , there is only 1 ILS and thats rwy 31.

 

the wind direction from ASN is 150/6 so the landing has to be rwy 13.

 

Now what roll modes and pitch modes will i use? LNAV and VNAV? also what mins do i go off as this rwy doesn't show any information whatsoever.

 

 

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I cant really answer your question, but I was wondering if in the real world, do they really change the active runway for a 1deg change in wind direction or 1kt speed change ?

because FSX is very strict, it will change the active runway for 1kt winds which changes direction, shouldnt the NG be able to land with some amount of tail-wind which doesnt exceed the aircraft's limitations ?

 

I dont mean to hijack this thread, but it did make me wonder what do you do in cases like this where the wind forces you to land on a runway which is not, well, ideal...

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Maybe not the exact answer you want, but I don't think the tailwind limitation for a 737 is lower than 6 knots ;). Use runway 31 if you want to, the length of 2500m should be more than adequate. There is no published procedure for a LOC BC approach. You could do a circling approach though.

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If the runway is 13 then fly a visual approach. Fly a simple pattern and land. VNAV, LNAV, shmalNAV.....just fly the plane. 

 

Let us know how you get on.

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There is localizer backcourse tracking capability if using IAN.

Though I would do visual here.

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At EGLL (Heathrow) the main  Runways 27R  and 27L will  normally  be  used  in  preference  to  Runways  09R  and 09L when  the  tail  wind  component  is  no  greater  than  5  knots , provided  the  runway surface  is  dry .

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Very good response guys, thanks!

 

My experience is low and aviation is not always rigid as i'm learning and things can be worked around like what joeba mentioned, fly the ILS with a very small TW.

 

Thanks peter maybe i will try a visual i'll have an hour in the air to prep and read my FCTM for a visual app and plan very carefully!

 

Proper Planning Prevents ###### Poor Performance hehe

 

RSVIT how is IAN used with PMDG? Never uses this before!

If the runway is 13 then fly a visual approach. Fly a simple pattern and land. VNAV, LNAV, shmalNAV.....just fly the plane. 

 

Let us know how you get on.

I will do think i'll attempt my first visual :)

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When i first started simming i thought everything had to be so so precise. Then i watched a video of a charter flight from the UK to the Canaries. The pilot was flying the STAR per the numbers, but it was a clear day and he had a perfect view of the runway off to the right. He asked for a visual, got it, and just flew it to the runway and landed.

 

No VNAV/LNAV, no minimums, just a landing.

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Hi peter thats what i'm slowly understanding now :) i have ditched Radar Contact and going to start flying my Bird and procedures the way i want and out of the book!

 

Radar contact is just a pain when approaching 40nm you have to setup a waypoint at 40nm which it can and sometimes messes up your STAR!

 

I found this on PPRUNE

 

 

If you flying a 737 with an ND, circle to land is very easy.

Prior to commencing the approach, either enter a 2nm final at 3deg, or put a 2nm fix ring around the RW threshold position.

A 2nm wide downwind works very well. If the ND is on a 10nm scale, the the base of the aircraft symbol (the triangle) is equivalent to 1nm, so estimate twice that width from the runway indication, and you have a 2nm wide downwind. If you have a 2nm fix off the RW threshold, you can also use that to estimate the downwind width.

Fly downwind at flap 5 and 1500'agl, extend gear and flap 15 when abeam the landing threshold if a visual approach, or otherwise gear down flap 15 if as a part of an instrument approach with circling.

Abeam the 2nm final point, extend landing flap, begin base turn and commence descent. Set the same thrust and pitch settings as you would use stabilised on an ILS. Complete landing checklist.

Aim to fly a standard 3deg descent rate (approx 800fpm should work out nicely at most weights). Because your total track miles until landing is approx 5nm (i.e. 2nm base width + 2nm final length + a little bit extra for the turn), descent from 1500 feet at 3 deg will work out perfectly. Adjust descent rate using the 2nm final point as a guide to descent rate, you should aim to fly over it at 600'agl.

If you need a bit more room to make sure you get stabilised, you can easily modify the procedure to a 3nm final, however if you are flying this as a circling approach, the 2nm final procedure makes it much easier to remain within the 4.2nm circling area.

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I will do think i'll attempt my first visual :)

Vernon

 

Use runway 31. Unless you have done a lot of practice of visuals, you are looking for a disaster.

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Michael its all good, i have this one lol Proper Planning Prevents ###### Poor Performance hehe 

 

 

i'll save my flight at the TL where the app procedure begins just incase!

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Vernon

 

Use runway 31. Unless you have done a lot of practice of visuals, you are looking for a disaster.

 

I could not disagree more. If visibility is good he should be able to make a visual approach and land perfectly. How do you think pilots landed aircraft before the electronic wizardry we have today was invented ?

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I tried to setup the app for an ILS onto rwy 31 but these where the only approaches available-

 

NDB 

RNV

VDM

 

what is VDM and how come the ILS isn't listed?

 

I didn't go for the circling approach wasn't sure about the minimums as the vis was down to 2.5 SM

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 Very odd, what NavData are you using? Using NavData Pro I've got ILSZ 31, ILSY 31, RNAV 31, LOCY and Z 31 as well as the NDB31. Could always tune and fly the ILS on your own.

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I'm using navigraph? I tuned and flew the ILS what nothing was in the database...

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How do you think pilots landed aircraft before the electronic wizardry we have today was invented ?
Pilots conducted visual landings after a lot of practice in C172s, Beechcraft Barons, 737 simulators etc. I doubt if their first visual was in a 737 loaded with passengers.

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The ILS at EPSC Rwy 31 is unavailable till 18 Dec 14 according to the following NOTAM from here:

 

E2461/14 NOTAMN

Q) EPWW/QICXX/I /BO /A /000/999/5335N01454E005

A) EPSC B) 1409180000 C) 1412182359 EST

E) PROCEDURE EPSC ILS Z OR LOC Z RWY 31 (CAT A/B/C/D) (AD2 EPSC

6-1-1

AND AD2 EPSC 6-1-2) NOT AVAILABLE.

PROCEDURE EPSC ILS Y OR LOC Y RWY 31 (CAT A/B/C/D) (AD2 EPSC 6-1-3

AND AD2 EPSC 6-1-4) NOT AVAILABLE.

https://pilotweb.nas.faa.gov/PilotWeb/notamRetrievalByICAOAction.do?method=displayByICAOs&reportType=RAW&formatType=DOMESTIC&retrieveLocId=EPSC&actionType=notamRetrievalByICAOs

Very odd, what NavData are you using? Using NavData Pro I've got ILSZ 31, ILSY 31, RNAV 31, LOCY and Z 31 as well as the NDB31. Could always tune and fly the ILS on your own.

So this means your database is out of date!

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 I only update mine every few cycles. Point is that it should still be in the system.

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the wind direction from ASN is 150/6 so the landing has to be rwy 13.

 

Not really...

 

Granted, most facilities will try and align people to the wind, but if the weather is low and the wind is only 150 at 6, most places will just assign the longest runway with an ILS.  It's only a 6 knot tailwind.

 

Beyond that, and I'm restraining myself a bit here because I HATE this simism:

Pilots land their own plane, by hand, a good 99% of the time, visually.  If the weather doesn't call for an ILS, then they won't use the ILS.

 

 

 

I cant really answer your question, but I was wondering if in the real world, do they really change the active runway for a 1deg change in wind direction or 1kt speed change ?

 

No.  Operational advantage, common sense, and coordination take the cake.  A facility isn't going to change everything for 1 knot/degree.  Even if you had a North-South runway, were landing North and the wind went from 089 to 091, they'd stay in North Ops until there was some break in traffic (and the wind was forecast to become more Southerly).  Even if you had a 10 knot wind, the change from 089 to 091 is essentially negligible because the head/tailwind component of that crosswind is minimal (it's almost all cross).

 

It's a huge simism that pilots always land into the wind.

 

Fun fact:

Wind less than 5 knots is considered 'calm' by the 7110.65 (ATC version of the AIM, essentially):

"Except where a “runway use” program is in effect, use the runway most nearly aligned with the wind when 5 knots or more, or the “calm wind” runway when less than 5 knots (set tetrahedronaccordingly) unless use of another runway will be operationally advantageous, or is requested by the pilot."

 

Runway use programs are like what you'll find at BWI:

Runways 31L/R and 10 are not to be used for departure unless the wind is 20 knots or greater, in favor of those runways.

Runways 15L/R and 28 are not to be used for arrival unless the wind is 20 knots or greater, in favor of those runways.

Wind 041-220: Arrivals on 10. Departures 15L/R (15L GA/props only)

Wind 221-040 Arrivals on 33L/R (33R GA/props only). Departures 28.

 

As you can see, a lot more goes into runway selection than "point the nose into the wind."

 

 

 

So this means your database is out of date!

 

False.  I'm usually relatively patient with you, but unless you know something is categorically true or false, I ask that you avoid saying things like this.  It could make people think that there's a problem with their system, when in this case, there's absolutely nothing wrong.

 

The NOTAMed unavailability of an approach does not mean that it's not going to be in your navdata.  IAD had the STOIC departure in its navdata for years.  Potomac TRACON NOTAMed it out of service from the day it was released until the FAA took it out of circulation because they feared it would cause traffic conflicts.

 

 

 

 I only update mine every few cycles. Point is that it should still be in the system.

 

Yep - all procedures are in the system, regardless of NOTAM because whatever is causing the NOTAM could end earlier or later than the planned time, which could cause problems if it got pulled from the nav data at any time it's NOTAMed.

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I updated my database to the 1411 cycle and they no longer contain those approaches dave mentioned. They now contain these approaches - NDB RNV VDM in my latest database so i'm only going off what i have in my FMS. So i assumed his was out of date.

You can be patient with me because this forum is for nubes and learners and we all make mistake but as a community we will all help and correct each other. I don't see Professional pilots forum where i would deserve getting the stick lol

 

thankyou for letting me understand about NOTAM and database though as you mentioned below!

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Kyle's one of the top guys here and always means well. Vernon's discussions are bringing a lot to the table. Love all.  :smile: 

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